"Hypocrites!"

[miditek]

Hypocrisy is certainly nothing new in the church. In fact, it goes back to Biblical times. Christ admonished the believers and non-believers alike, several times, and included:

"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of Hell as you are." (Matthew 23:15)

"You sons of snakes! You brood of vipers! How will any of you escape Hell?" (Matthew 23:33)

It is rather easy for me to see how many people can and do become disillusioned with the Church, both from without, as well as from within. Acts of hypocrisy committed by Christians damages the Church in the eyes of man, and causes distraction away from the good works of the Church, and not to mention, the Good News itself.

Many denominations consider themselves to be the only "true believers", and as such, are under the false assumption that only their sect will inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. The Bible has warnings that sectarianism is carnal, and as such, is a grave sin.

In short, nothing that comes from today's modern doctrinal wars is pleasing to God.

My girlfriend was raised in the CoC, although she had a recent detour with Mormonism. There are doctrines that they teach that we personally consider to be heretical at best, particularly the part where good Mormons that obtain the third level of heaven become gods themselves. (I guess there must be an exemption for the First Commandment there!).

Oh, the comment I made about the Church of christ was not meant to be too humorous---throughout my childhood&until 1989 I was a member and they ACTUALLY believe they are the ONLY people going to heaven!

My father and stepmother both attend a CoC church, although neither subscribe to the notion (they are fairly pragmatic people) that the Kingdom of Heaven is reserved exclusively for its members. I would love to see any serious theological evidence of this, as it does not exist.

There are some people that attend my church (Baptist) that are ex-CoC, and they have told me the same thing, and it is one reason why the left. For the record, I personally do not believe that the Baptists have a patent on salvation either, as I do believe that plenty of them will be in Hell also!

The reason I mentioned Miditek is that he is from the South &the CofC has milions of members in the South, so their fanaticism is well-known.

Yes, Miditek is from the South- from Tennessee actually, where everyone still runs around barefoot making moonshine and tending to rather large marijuana farms filled with booby traps.

CoC members are not the only Protestant group that believes that they have a lock on Salvation. There are certain Seventh Day Adventists that also entertain similar and ridiculous notions.

Some even classify them as a cult. Its weird---we were allowed to wear make-up, cuss, war mini-skirts, drink---I mean the wildest sexiest girls in our area wre CofC membes yet, still tere was that belief that only-ONLY-Us were going to Heaven. Similar to the cults like Davidians&Peoples Temple(Which branched off the main religion that the CofC did!).

It almost sounds like some of the Catholics that I went to school with. (I was a Baptist infidel in Catholic schools, and let me tell you one thing, the Catholics can drink!)

There is a saying,"hard-headed Church of Christ" which is considered an insult in my neck-of-the-woods. But, CofC are like Catholics in which they do not believe in divorce, or abortion---I mean, females can fuck around all they want to, as long as they don't get caught! Oh, I could say alot about that hypocritical nonsense, but I won't.

Well, if such behaviors are condoned, then it is a sad thing, wouldn't you agree? I worked with a CoC guy that was a Director at the Firm that I used to be employed with, and this guy was screwing a secretary, although he was a deacon/elder, and on the board of directors at the local CoC school. Yet, he had the audacity to presume that my soul was in trouble.

I CORINTHIANS 6:9-11 clearly highlights what type of people will not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven- and I don't think that there are any exemptions, (real or implied) regardless of denomination- be it Baptist, Catholic, Methodist, CoC, Lutheran, or any others- this includes:

(1) Fornicators shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

(2) Idolaters shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

(3) Adulterers shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

(4) The effeminate shall not enter the kingdom of God

(5) Homosexuals shall not enter the kingdom of God.

(6) Thieves shall not enter the kingdom of God.

(7) The covetous will not enter the kingdom of God.

(8) Drunkards shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

(9) Revilers shall not inherit the kingdom of God

(10) Swindlers shall not inherit the kingdom of God

[browneyedgirl]

You really did it! You have Guts, Miditek!

LOL! I like the way that COOL smiley popped up under number 8!

Seventh Day Adventists? Thats what the Davidians branched from.

I agree. If there is a Heaven, not many are going to be worthy to go there. Yet, there has to be that hope, that there will be justice in the end, or life is not really worth living.

I have to go to work now, or I'd post more. My hat is off to you Miditek because you are very brave in posting this topic here. Frankly, I'd rather stick my hand in a hornet's nest.
But, you have freedom of Speech as much as the other side, so Run like the wind with it, Miditek! Just remember what happened to Stephen.

[Carcass]

(1) Fornicators shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

(2) Idolaters shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

(3) Adulterers shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

(4) The effeminate shall not enter the kingdom of God

(5) Homosexuals shall not enter the kingdom of God.

(6) Thieves shall not enter the kingdom of God.

(7) The covetous will not enter the kingdom of God.

(8) Drunkards shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

(9) Revilers shall not inherit the kingdom of God

(10) Swindlers shall not inherit the kingdom of God

That pretty much excludes everybody, doesn't it?

[miditek]

(1) Fornicators shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

(2) Idolaters shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

(3) Adulterers shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

(4) The effeminate shall not enter the kingdom of God

(5) Homosexuals shall not enter the kingdom of God.

(6) Thieves shall not enter the kingdom of God.

(7) The covetous will not enter the kingdom of God.

(8) Drunkards shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

(9) Revilers shall not inherit the kingdom of God

(10) Swindlers shall not inherit the kingdom of God

That pretty much excludes everybody, doesn't it?

It certainly does narrow things down a bit, I'll admit that. Does this mean everyone? Of course not! My advice to this dilemma would be to refer to Matthew 19:16-26 where "Jesus Counsels the Rich Young Ruler"

When Jesus challenged the rich, young ruler to give away his worldly goods and to follow Him, this represented a personal challenge of faith, and should not be misinterpreted as a command to abandon all of your assets in order to "buy" one's way into Heaven. Since God owns everything anyway, this was a test of both faith and obedience to this particular rich young ruler, which he unfortunately did not heed, even though he readily accepted and acknowledged Jesus's status as Deity. Most regrettably, even a face to face encounter and conversation with the Messiah was still not sufficient for the young man to give up the ways of the world.

It does also illustrate that most rich people are more concerned with their wealth, than with honoring God and helping their fellow man.

Also, another lesson from this is that even if it seems that no one can be saved, Jesus reminds us that through God, all things are possible. For instance, when Saul was transformed to Paul on the road to Damascus, God illustrated that sometimes even the greatest sinners can become the biggest saints by grace through faith.

Even though Paul was a very high ranking Rabbi, his zealous and violent actions ensured that he was headed for a lot of trouble. However, God saw something in Paul that the rest of us could never have noticed, and as such, used Paul to boldly proclaim the Gospel, which in time, shook the very foundations of the Roman Empire.

[NeonVomit]

(1) Fornicators shall not inherit the kingdom of God. (oops)

(2) Idolaters shall not inherit the kingdom of God. (does Jari count?)

(3) Adulterers shall not inherit the kingdom of God. (I'm not married, so safe from that)

(4) The effeminate shall not enter the kingdom of God. (I have do long hair... )

(5) Homosexuals shall not enter the kingdom of God. (straight here, but I have no problem with gay people. Does this make me guilty by association?)

(6) Thieves shall not enter the kingdom of God. (I never stole anything too valuable but I guess this counts too...)

(7) The covetous will not enter the kingdom of God. (oops mk II)

(8) Drunkards shall not inherit the kingdom of God. (really got me there...)

(9) Revilers shall not inherit the kingdom of God. (if that's what I think it means, that would exclude most of the church-going public...)

(10) Swindlers shall not inherit the kingdom of God. (I try to be careful...)


In short, according to this list, I'm going to hell, and I'll see most of you guys down there with me!

[browneyedgirl]

@NeonVomit: +5 Yeah, I hear they have some real hot dances down there!
Like I said, I will get to meet all the famous people I couldn't meet in real life! They looked down their nose at folks like me, then they will wind up side-by-side with the people they snubbed as dirt. Well, well--death is fair, I guess!

Wow! Thats an inspiration for people to live a Godly life---so they won't have to spend eternity next to someone like me! O_o the people who say they hate stupidity&mediocracy in any form are going to be in trouble. Lots of stupid people in Hell. Serves the bashers right for being so damn arrogant.

All joking aside, that is one of the mysteries that we will never know until THAT time comes: Is there an afterlife&a God who will judge us fair&square. All we can do is just believe&hope, OR disbelieve. God has given man free will to not believe. Its our choice like any decision in life, except to follow God or not is probably the most serious decision anyone will ever make in their lifetime.

[miditek]

(1) Fornicators shall not inherit the kingdom of God. (oops)

(2) Idolaters shall not inherit the kingdom of God. (does Jari count?)

(3) Adulterers shall not inherit the kingdom of God. (I'm not married, so safe from that)

(4) The effeminate shall not enter the kingdom of God. (I have do long hair... )

(5) Homosexuals shall not enter the kingdom of God. (straight here, but I have no problem with gay people. Does this make me guilty by association?)

(6) Thieves shall not enter the kingdom of God. (I never stole anything too valuable but I guess this counts too...)

(7) The covetous will not enter the kingdom of God. (oops mk II)

(8) Drunkards shall not inherit the kingdom of God. (really got me there...)

(9) Revilers shall not inherit the kingdom of God. (if that's what I think it means, that would exclude most of the church-going public...)

(10) Swindlers shall not inherit the kingdom of God. (I try to be careful...)

In short, according to this list, I'm going to hell, and I'll see most of you guys down there with me!

Lucifer, with the pompous sneer that he has worn throughout the ages, stands as a prosecuting attorney against all of mankind, and his cleverness is revealed in perpetuating the lie that Hell is only a myth. Those that subscribe to that mythology are in for a rude awakening.

Luke 16:19-31 reveals what to expect, with the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus. One of the more striking verses shows the Rich Man appealing to Abraham (a post-incarnate appearance by him no less), when he begs Abraham to allow Lazarus to dip his hand in some water to cool the Rich Man's tongue, as he is in flames and agony.

Abraham admonishes the Rich Man and reminds him that the Rich Man had all of the good things in life, and that Lazarus was poor and in torment- and in the hereafter, those roles have been reversed. The Rich Man then begs Abraham to send Lazarus back to the world to warn his brothers, lest that they come to such a horrible place of suffering.

Abraham reminded the Rich Man that (ancient) Israel had a tendency to slaughter and/or ignore its prophets, and if they would not listen to them, then they certainly would not listen to a dead man.

A more modern example of what to expect was outlined very well by my friend, Maurice S. Rawlings, Sr., M.D., in his book "Beyond Death's Door". Dr. Rawlings is a retired cardiologist that had decades of experience in the ER (Emergency Room) as well as in surgery. His book recounted the experiences that he saw with patients that had been brought back from being clinically dead- or had been "flatlined" on the EKG monitors for extended periods of time.

Some people did not wish to come back, and were angry with Dr. Rawlings for doing whatever it took to revive them. Other patients were terrified beyond belief. One of the more harrowing accounts was that of a fifteen year old girl that had gone into cardiac arrest, after a self-induced overdose. As the girl came back to life during the medical procedures, she was shrieking and screaming "Stop them! They are hurting me! Don't let them take me!" Dr. Rawlings and the staff assured her that they were only trying to help.

During a follow-up visit to the girl's recovery room at the hospital, Dr. Rawlings recounted the girl's account of what she saw. It was, in a word, a hellish place that she was being brought to. Literally a lake of fire and damnation, and she was still clearly shaken and in tears as she described the horrible place that she saw, and that nothing she could say in our language could accurately describe the place. The book itself had some very detailed descriptions of this, and many other eyewitness accounts.

Food for thought...

[NeonVomit]

During a follow-up visit to the girl's recovery room at the hospital, Dr. Rawlings recounted the girl's account of what she saw. It was, in a word, a hellish place that she was being brought to. Literally a lake of fire and damnation, and she was still clearly shaken and in tears as she described the horrible place that she saw, and that nothing she could say in our language could accurately describe the place. The book itself had some very detailed descriptions of this, and many other eyewitness accounts.

Food for thought...

I'd be very curious to see accounts of this from people who were not raised in a Christian/Jewish/Islamic environment. Like, what would a lifelong Bhuddist see while being 'clinically dead'? Or Hindu? Or a convinced atheist, what would they see? If they all have similar accounts and described similar things, I'd be convinced.

The mind is an incredibly powerful thing. What tricks would one's imagination play on them in such a stressful situation? I've had some pretty powerful hallucinations while feverish, and have never taken mind-altering drugs of any sort. Like, horses galloping out of the celing and stuff. And that was just a bog-standard fever.

It's very easy to put anything there isn't a clear answer for down to God or any other religion. That's what people used to do before they knew what earthquakes or lightning or rain was. It's also easy to retort scientific evidence with biblical quotations. That's like claiming 2 + 2 does not equal 4, but in fact is Blue...

(To clarify, I myself am probably more agnostic than anything else. Atheists annoy me because they act like they know everything and hence it's become a religion in itself. I think something is probably out there, but I refuse to claim to understand more than that, it is still beyond man's small mind to comprehend the vastness of the universe and how it works, let alone whoever/whatever created it. Having been raised in a Christian environment, I am biased towards that way of stuff working in my mind, but had I been raised in southern China, I daresay things would be different...)

[browneyedgirl]

A person needs to live a good life&follow God because it may be the right thing to do which leads to a happier life(NOT a perfect one, though), NOT because they are scared of Hell. I mean, if a person feels they are "forced" to follow God just to keep from going to Hell its going to lead to resentment instead of happiness, and lots of people are going to abandon their faith.
Follow God because you feel its the right path for you, and its not an easy road to walk down. Being a true Christian takes alot of stength, courage and faith, not just to do the "right" thing but to hold on&not get discouraged amid the hard times of life&the ridicule that life throws at you.

I remember not so long ago a topic of this kind on this forum would get all sorts of Venomous, hate-filled postings from a few that were blatantly anti-Christian. It was always acceptable here for the Pagans, atheists, etc. to express themselves&their anti-christian views. Now, I guess its the other side's time to talk.

@Miditek, this may be the topic that gets Mods placed in here &when that happens, you won't be posting Christian stuff anymore with much freedom, so you better get it out of your system while you can. And, I mean that to be kind, miditek. I think Both sides need to be heard equally&now God-believers have the chance to express themselves.

[miditek]

During a follow-up visit to the girl's recovery room at the hospital, Dr. Rawlings recounted the girl's account of what she saw. It was, in a word, a hellish place that she was being brought to. Literally a lake of fire and damnation, and she was still clearly shaken and in tears as she described the horrible place that she saw, and that nothing she could say in our language could accurately describe the place. The book itself had some very detailed descriptions of this, and many other eyewitness accounts.

Food for thought...

I'd be very curious to see accounts of this from people who were not raised in a Christian/Jewish/Islamic environment. Like, what would a lifelong Bhuddist see while being 'clinically dead'? Or Hindu? Or a convinced atheist, what would they see? If they all have similar accounts and described similar things, I'd be convinced.

I think that would be a great idea, NeonVomit. I do think that having objectivity would be the real challenge, though. Not biased one way or the other.

Although it has been a while since I read Dr. Rawling's book, I am fairly certain that at least some of these case studies actually did include folks that did not have a religious background (initially), but a near-death experience certainly changed some of them.

In fact, Dr. Rawlings himself was actually one of the people of which you speak. He had no background in religion as a young man (Note: He is in his eighties now), and mentioned that he was a pretty hard-core atheist when he came out of medical school and began his residency.

However, after treating so many cases over the years, he gradually began to realize that there was a lot more going on than science alone could explain. It was these experiences that led him to abandon atheism and to find out what all of this excitement was about.

There are a great many doctors out there, including Jewish and Muslim doctors, that often encourage their patients and families to not overlook prayer and the spiritual aspects of their treatment, and that faith plays an undeniable role in the healing process.

The mind is an incredibly powerful thing. What tricks would one's imagination play on them in such a stressful situation? I've had some pretty powerful hallucinations while feverish, and have never taken mind-altering drugs of any sort. Like, horses galloping out of the celing and stuff. And that was just a bog-standard fever.

There is no question that your assessment about the mind is correct. I can't tell you how many friends that I have who have ruined their minds with drugs and alcohol, and remain wrapped up in a paranoid and warped reality. It is a sad way to live. Hallucinations are not uncommon when having a fever or related ailment, and I can't argue with that.

My own neighbor had a near-death experience, he was shot by the police several times during a domestic disturbance, and described his own experiences.
There is no medical reason why this guy should have even survived, after being hit six times in the back with .45 caliber, armor-piercing rounds, and then left to bleed to death on his kitchen floor for over 90 minutes before the ambulance even arrived. Incredibly, it took the paramedics over 30 to 40 additional minutes to load him up, and even longer to get to the trauma center.

He also recalled a brilliant light, and a city that he could not describe, as it was simply too beautiful, and words could not even begin to describe its beauty. He recalled seeing his long-dead grandmother, who told him that it was not yet his time, and that he was going to have to go back to this world of the living, but that he would see her and the rest of his family again, very soon.

He explained to me that he understood that God saw something in him worth saving, and sent him back. He also mentioned that it was probably due to having a daughter to raise- which I feel is part of it, but also I mentioned that God did this because he has a plan for the neighbor's life, and not just his daughter's. It is also miraculous to note that the four-year old daughter was not at home during the time of the shooting, and that bullets whizzed right past the wife's face as the officer fired through their kitchen door, and other than some minor cuts from broken glass, she was not injured.

There are eyewitness accounts of God saving the lives of atheists and agnostics, which were near death, and to which they later converted to Christianity. I wish that there were a readily available compilation of these experiences, such as the scenarios that you described. If one does not exist, I can't think of a better topic for a new book on this subject, though.

It's very easy to put anything there isn't a clear answer for down to God or any other religion. That's what people used to do before they knew what earthquakes or lightning or rain was. It's also easy to retort scientific evidence with biblical quotations. That's like claiming 2 + 2 does not equal 4, but in fact is Blue...

Christianity is based on faith- it is the entire basis of what we believe. What cannot be seen by mortal eyes, and what cannot be heard by mortal ears.
When God's peace descends upon a person, I can say from personal experience, that it is a level of comfort and safety that cannot readily be described in human words though.

God has saved me from certain death many times- having guns stuck in my face, being actually shot at, automobile accidents, near drownings, near overdoses, etc.- and I feel that if a person has enough experiences like this in life, they too will become convinced that God is protecting them.

(To clarify, I myself am probably more agnostic than anything else.

One of my best friends from childhood is agnostic, at best, but this fact does not preclude the fact that we have been loyal, lifelong friends. I don't judge him, and would do anything in the world that I could to help him or his family.

Atheists annoy me because they act like they know everything and hence it's become a religion in itself.

I understand the implications of what you are saying there, and have found myself in similar situations too. I also don't like Christians that behave as if they are God's little earwigs, either. You may recall the "Church Lady" from Saturday Night Live, for a good example of this.

My mother was very much like the "Church Lady" when I was growing up, but fortunately, mom has put away the fanaticism, and is very much focused on honoring God by helping other people. I'm most proud of her work with the inner city kids here in my town.

My father was very much like "Sergeant Slaughter" from the World Wrestling Federation- who in other words, would positively beat the hell out of people that crossed him, and absolutely without mercy. Dad was also equally ruthless in business as well.

He too has gotten rid of his fanaticism and hatred, and also goes out of his way to be kind and helpful to people that are less fortunate than he is, and to honor God each day.

He is one of the few multi-millionaires that comes to mind that actually are making a difference in this area.

I think something is probably out there, but I refuse to claim to understand more than that, it is still beyond man's small mind to comprehend the vastness of the universe and how it works, let alone whoever/whatever created it.

None of us can truly comprehend this, and your words are indicative of a good sense of humility- a very valuable trait, I might add. In fact, the words that you wrote above sound a great deal about some of the writings of Dr. Werner von Braun, who was the father of the V1, V2, and Saturn V rocket programs.

Having been raised in a Christian environment, I am biased towards that way of stuff working in my mind, but had I been raised in southern China, I daresay things would be different...)

If you were raised in a Christian environment, then I am quite confident that you've seen more than your share of lies and hypocrisy, and your current attiudes/opinions are what I would regard as completely understandable.

[miditek]

A person needs to live a good life&follow God because it may be the right thing to do which leads to a happier life(NOT a perfect one, though), NOT because they are scared of Hell. I mean, if a person feels they are "forced" to follow God just to keep from going to Hell its going to lead to resentment instead of happiness, and lots of people are going to abandon their faith.

Only humans can attempt to force another human to follow God, and even then, those attempts are frequently futile. I've never seen any instances of where God forced himself on anyone.

I once long ago had a "wishy-washy" type of girl friend that really didn't know what she wanted in the relationship. One minute she was all over me, and the next, was completely aloof and indifferent. Since she could not decide what she wanted, I helped her along with the decision making process and dumped her. If it was not real affection and friendship, then I didn't want to be involved with her. God doesn't want a relationship with anyone based on fear or false assumptions- God wants it to be real just as much as a human would.

Follow God because you feel its the right path for you, and its not an easy road to walk down. Being a true Christian takes alot of stength, courage and faith, not just to do the "right" thing but to hold on&not get discouraged amid the hard times of life&the ridicule that life throws at you.

Yes, being a Christian is quite difficult, and Christ admonished all believers that they would be reviled, tormented, abandoned, and looked down upon- just as He was during his time on Earth. It is part of the deal, and those that cannot accept this are wasting their time.

I remember not so long ago a topic of this kind on this forum would get all sorts of Venomous, hate-filled postings from a few that were blatantly anti-Christian. It was always acceptable here for the Pagans, atheists, etc. to express themselves&their anti-christian views. Now, I guess its the other side's time to talk.

I know, and not to mention anti-Semitic Nazi sympathizers and trolls as well. And not just in this forum, either. There is another Strato-related forum that had plenty of anti-God rancor going on. For all of the talk of Kaballah, Paganism, Celts, astrology, devil-worship, etc., I would say that there is even far less support (not to mention scientific evidence) for those fringe belief systems than for the traditional Christian/Jewish/Muslim beliefs.

@Miditek, this may be the topic that gets Mods placed in here &when that happens, you won't be posting Christian stuff anymore with much freedom, so you better get it out of your system while you can. And, I mean that to be kind, miditek. I think Both sides need to be heard equally&now God-believers have the chance to express themselves.

Well, this is the Stratovarius site and forum, and since they are paying for it, they can run this site as they see fit. Jens, when he actually has the time, is largely responsible for site administration, and it's not really my place to tell him who to edit, lock, or ban.

Not trying to put words in his mouth, but judging from some of the long running and lengthy discussions that he and I (and others) have had in various political, technical, and religious threads on this, as well as Tolkki's, forums, I would be rather surprised if he decided to lock my account. If he did lock this topic or my account though, it remains his right to do so, since it is their site and their funds that keep it up and running.

It is quite likely that the site admin probably couldn't care less what I put up here, just so long as it is not blatant abuse, which of course I am sure that he would gladly put a stop to.

If other mod-level persons wished to do the same, then again, they have been given those rights by the site administrator, and that is their prerogative and privilege to do so.

After all, this is simply a web forum, and nothing more or nothing less. Most of the people here are very interesting, and enjoy reading and corresponding with most everyone.

There is another forum that I frequent (one that I sent you a link to some time ago via PM) that is really rancorous and wild, and some of the mods are real assholes that will edit/temp-ban/and perma-ban people left and right, just because they can and get a kick out of it.

On a related note, many of the banned members of that site frequently retaliate with DDOs attacks, CGI abuses, vandalism, buffer overruns, and countless other attacks, and the uptime and performance on that site is frequently pathetic.

That's one thing that I feel that makes this site different, in the fact that things seem to have settled down finally, and that most everyone seems to be having a pretty good time. Not much downtime at all, and the performance of the site is very good. That probably has a lot to do with Jens' technical abilities, as well as the site's hosting service.

In my line of work, I've locked accounts before, and even had to lock a supervisor (with network admin privileges) out, and escort him to HR during a termination process, so this is something that I can relate to, even if it is from a general business viewpoint. "Sorry man, just doing my job!"

[browneyedgirl]

I just did not want you to get into "hot water", miditek, or have others bash you. I keep forgetting that it is a different atmosphere here than it was 2-3 years ago&it is good, IMO. People now are more tolerant in this forum&that is very good. IMO, there is nothing wrong with differences in opinion as long as there is no name-calling&childish stuff like that.
So forgive my over-concern. I think this thread will do fine.

[stratoplayer]

Well, I agree, that list practically damns the whole place, since it is pretty hard not to have screwed up once, and besides, most of the things prohibited are FUN and are what makes life interesting. Using that list as a guide then the entire world could just as easily locks itself up in a monastery and pray until they all died... thanks, but no thanks.

And regarding the statement that "science/logic/man can't explain everything", I personally think it is 100% accurate, we are not all knowing, we are fallible, we are gullible, we are biased AND we are used to our little way of life, therefore something "extraordinary" will shock us the same way that fire must have scared the hell out of Uhngungh 100,000 years ago...

BUT, I do think that given time and taking into consideration many factors (the human mind for example) we could find reasonable solutions or constructs to most of our... er... happenings?

[NeonVomit]

I too could claim several times God saved me. I could also claim that it was pure luck that the shell that landed right next to us didn't go off that one time, that whoever armed it failed to do so properly or it was a faulty fuse or whatever...

I could also claim that God saw it fit to have my 6-year old cousin die of leukaemia. Or maybe that too was random chance that her genes or whatever else caused it did so.

Either one or the other. No picking & choosing now over the issue, right?

[miditek]

I too could claim several times God saved me. I could also claim that it was pure luck that the shell that landed right next to us didn't go off that one time, that whoever armed it failed to do so properly or it was a faulty fuse or whatever...

Well, thank God it didn't explode, NeonVomit. Was this a mortar or artillery shell? Were you on training/maneuvers, or in actual combat? One of the younger guys that goes to our church had a similar story from Fallujah, while he and another guy were on duty at an OP (Observation Post) during a mortar attack by insurgents.

I could also claim that God saw it fit to have my 6-year old cousin die of leukaemia. Or maybe that too was random chance that her genes or whatever else caused it did so.

Seeing a child pass away, at least for me, is the most painful thing that I can imagine, even more so if it is family. I had an eight year old cousin that was nearly decapitated in an automobile accident, and it obviously devastated her parents, and the rest of the family.

I've seen a great deal of death and suffering also in my lifetime, and it is always a comfort for us as Christians to depend on God to help us get through these difficult times. Why does God allow pain and suffering?

The reasons are myriad- very many. If we understood why God allows certain things to happen the way that they do, then we would be equal to God himself.

The Bible states that suffering is part of the human condition. The Messiah Himself suffered tremendously during His time on the Earth, and as such, Christians are not only not exempt from suffering, but are promised by God that we actually will suffer for His name's sake in this lifetime.

Suffering helps to build character, and it draws us closer to God. It helps us to realize that we are not in control, and that frequently, we must depend on God to help us, and everything happens for a reason- even if we do not understand why at the present time.

Job questioned God about his own loss of his seven children, his possessions, and finally his health. God answered Job out of a whirlwind, and his response to Job is the longest, uninterrupted speech by God in the entire Bible.

I won't quote it word verbatim here, as it is very lengthy, but the key points in God's oratory message include:

* That Job lives in a world that also includes very
powerful and interesting creatures, and that God
also has to take care of them as well.

* Some of these creatures can only live by taking
the lives of others. (Carnivores).

* Job essentially does not understand the effort and
time that God must spend taking care of mankind
and the planet. (Job admits this to God, and asks
for God to forgive him.)

* God essentially reveals His omnipotence to Job, and
reminds Job that the Creator does not necessarily
have to answer any questions that come from us
mortals (although it is strongly implied that God
does not say that you cannot ask these questions.)

* In the end, God strongly rebukes Job's friends
for putting words into God's mouth which are of
an opinion that God Himself did not share. God is
also angry with the three friends for their
incorrect assumptions that Job was being punished,
when in fact, he was not. God goes on to instruct
the three friends to make some sacrifices and to
ask Job to pray to God for their forgiveness,
"lest I deal with you according to your folly",
which is sometimes translated as "lest I destroy
you all."

After that time, God grants Job seven more children, and returns his wealth, and fully restores him.

God never did reveal to Job (at the time) why he was suffering, however, God knew well in advance of these trials and tribulations that Job would not curse God nor dishonor Him- even before the trials began.

Lucifer, in his eternal arrogance, of course, couldn't actually take take God's word for it (that regardless of what Lucifer did, the attempts would be futile), and continued to apply as much pain and suffering Job as got would permit during the tests.

Either one or the other. No picking & choosing now over the issue, right?

I believe in the concept of Divine Providence, NeonVomit. While it is not specifically mentioned in the Bible, it is strongly implied. Divine Providence is a concept that offers the thought that God is so powerful in His omnipotence, that He uses and shapes *all* events in history, great and small, to ultimately fulfill His will. More on that later.

[Carcass]

Off-topic:

One thing that I've been thinking about lately is that if Evangelicalism in US is linked to some certain denominations? Or is this movement interdenominational?

[browneyedgirl]

Off-topic:

One thing that I've been thinking about lately is that if Evangelicalism in US is linked to some certain denominations? Or is this movement interdenominational?

It seems to me that it is linked to Baptist, Church of God, Holiness, and maybe Pentecostal Churches, Carcass. The CofC is ranked as a fundamentalist church, as are 7th Day Adventist&Methodists.
IMO, I think it has to do with the emotionalism involved in the churches&how they receive salvation, but I could be so wrong in that. maybe Miditek can tell us the difference betwen fundamentalist&evangelicalism. I thought Fundamentalism was basicly, "Speak when the Bible Speaks&Be Silent where the Bible is Silent."

[miditek]

Off-topic:

One thing that I've been thinking about lately is that if Evangelicalism in US is linked to some certain denominations? Or is this movement interdenominational?

It seems to me that it is linked to Baptist, Church of God, Holiness, and maybe Pentecostal Churches, Carcass. The CofC is ranked as a fundamentalist church, as are 7th Day Adventist&Methodists.
IMO, I think it has to do with the emotionalism involved in the churches&how they receive salvation, but I could be so wrong in that. maybe Miditek can tell us the difference betwen fundamentalist&evangelicalism. I thought Fundamentalism was basicly, "Speak when the Bible Speaks&Be Silent where the Bible is Silent."

Evangelicism certainly has Protestant roots, but at its core, Evangelism itself does not necessarily apply to any specific denomination, as it is one of the most basic tenets of Christianity. In the political lexicon, evangelism could be linked to what some call proselytizing.

What this really is in simple talk, is preaching, and also missionary work. The Rev. Billy Graham is probably the best known evangelist in history, but he is hardly what I would say that he is what would qualify as a radical fundamentalist.

Fundamental Christians are often demonized in the media, but at the core, Fundamentalists believe that the Bible itself is God's inerrant word, and that the fundamental (read: basic) rule of the Law given to us by God is infallible and without error, and that if you want to call yourself a Christian, then brother you had better make the changes in your life and live like one. It's really that simple.

There are some radical fringes in the Evangelical community, such as the people that are protesting at the military funerals of our troops that have been KIA (Killed in Action) in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Now you (anyone here, for instance) might want to call those people fundamentalists, but one of the fundamentals was spelled out quite clearly by Christ, when he said that taking care of widows and orphans is what He considered to be "pure and undefiled religion".

It is quite apparent to me that those so-called fundamentals seem to have no clue about that basic fundamental rule of Christianity, because there are an awful lot of widows and orphans that are having to attend these funerals, and then have to hear the stories that God is delighted with the deaths of their sons and dads.

[Carcass]

Thanks for the replies.

[browneyedgirl]

Great explanation, Miditek! That was basicly what I wanted to say, but couldn't find the words.
But, it seems evangelicals also have more emotionalism in their beliefs, than fundamentalists. Know what I mean? Like evangelical is religion of the heart(you feel it) but fundamental is religion of the mind(you think it&know it)?

But, the CoC does have quite a few orphanages, and speaking about the churches in my area, they will help women who are raising children alone(widows). Also, as an example many years ago there was a girl who had a child out of wedlock&was undergoing much abuse from her Dad. Since this girl had joined CoC&turned her life around, a couple churches helped her move out of that abusive environment, and get on her feet. The girl has since married&had a couple more children.
The point is, the CofC can be fanatic&seemingly cold but, sometimes they do some good things for people. Also, when my Grandfather died my Grandma was left to raise 2 teenage sons still at home. The CofC helped my Grandma until she got Social Security started for my uncles&found a job.

[NeonVomit]

Why should I thank God? Why should I thank something that I don't even know exists? It was a 155mm artillery shell, it would have vapourised our entire battery had it gone off. As in, not even bodies. Nothing, we would've been reduced to dust. It had gone horribly, horribly off target during a training exercise by another unit. Shit happens.

Thank God? Why thank God when it may just be the equivalent of thanking Santa Claus for that model helicopter I got when I was six instead of my parents?

Really, should I thank whoever prepped the shell for not putting the fuse on properly? Should I thank whoever the inspection officer was for letting a faulty fuse slip through? Or should I find the topographer of the 189th HAU who made that disasterous error and condemn him for almost killing us all?

Thanking God for it is far simpler, is it not...

But let's say I do thank God for that. That makes him responsible for everything else that goes on in the world, doesn't it?

If that is indeed the case, every day watching the news will lead me to the conclusion that God is a sadistic bastard who enjoys seeing suffering in the world. Why would he allow things like the Darfur genocide to go ahead? Or the Holocaust, or the attacks on 9/11, if he could simply stop it?

No, instead, we thank him for a lucky escape in life, but he's not held responsible for any of the really bad stuff that goes on... no, that's man's fault, right?

Till where is man responsible? You claimed that WWII was won by God and not by the staggering sacrifices the Russian population made, and that Hitler was possessed by a demon, which means that no man was actually that twisted and evil. So, man had nothing to do with the whole war?

Do you find it uncomfortable that man is indeed capable of such cruelty and evil?

I have seen nothing to prove to me that God exists. Again, I haven't seen enough to prove to me that he doesn't exist however.

I refuse to thank God for getting me out of that situation alive, just like I refuse to hold him responsible for my cousin's illness and death.

[browneyedgirl]

Another form of hypocrisy issomeone who does not like USA, what it stands for&such, yet loves to make money from it&its people. Lots of folks like that you say? Yeah, but its still hypocrisy.



Welcome to another year of Anti-USA rhetoric in here thanks to...

[JensJohansson]

interesting thread. bump!

that list seems rather .. all-encompassing is the word I guess, for most people i know =)

i don't know.. corinthians apparently also says "women should be silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak, but should be submissive, as the law also says." (and no... personally i confess biblical ignorance, i used google.. that external networked part of my consciousness) i guess this is not a deal-breaker as far as the hell thing though?

i personally have a real problem with the "gays don't go to heaven" bit because it tries to make gay people, who can't help their feelings, act in an unnatural (perverse) way. pretending to be straight is perverse to a homosexual person. it would be like trying to make me (a heterosexual male) take it up the butt from another guy, otherwise i won't go to heaven. i say let's start by editing that line out. but alas it seems the bible is not wikipedia.. that is actually my fundamental problem with it. that it can't be revised.

regarding US wealth and power, i don't think it stems from some sort of deal with god. i think it stems from an atmosphere of openmindedness which was sort of hardwired into the US constitution. weirdly enough, there are heavy patterns in eurupean history regarding this, and even weirder, my theory is that it had the result of sort of cementing the idea that the jews are god's chosen people. every time a country went crazy with intolerance and threw out, tortured or killed all the jews, that country soon seems to have some sort of financial or military collapse.

i don't think it's because of the jews .. i think it's because, as a country, once you have enough spare time to sit around and be intolerant and say "these those or the other fuckers have to go because they are BAD BAD PEOPLE" you have your thumb so far up your ass that you don't much pay attention to fiscal or military matters, any more. and if you're a country in europe -- which for the last 1500 years was like a cage full of hungry wolves -- that's all it takes. "let's evict or kill all the jews, homos, etc" is the final symptom that that country decayed into some sort of insanity.

regarding the "moaning about the US while having great benefits from what it's achieved the last 200 years" issue, well i've see many US citiziens do this too =)

that's what the west is all about.. mr smith in in nebraska complaining heavily about the goddamn federal government poking its nose into everything and still exchanging goods and services in legal tender that the federal reserve graciously printed. or herr schmidt and the ECB. etc. bitching is a privilege!

[miditek]

interesting thread. bump!

that list seems rather .. all-encompassing is the word I guess, for most people i know =)

i don't know.. corinthians apparently also says "women should be silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak, but should be submissive, as
the law also says." (and no... personally i confess biblical ignorance, i used google.. that external networked part of my consciousness) i guess this is not a deal-breaker as far as the hell thing though?

I think what Paul was saying with the whole "women should be silent" thing is regarding women as pastors or as ministers in the church. And the submission thing could be interpreted as pastoral authority, and can also apply to family laws that go back to the Old Testament, which essentially means that dad, not mom, has the final authority in such matters.

Personally, I really don't think that condemns nuns or female ministers to hell though, not at all. For instance, I have a client that is a long term care facility (a nursing home) that has a female chaplain.
She has a master's degree in divinities, in addition to a doctorate in psychology, but does wear a white collar as would any other priest.

One of the big problems that she deals with is guilt that is expressed by family members that have to put an elderly mom or dad into a long term care facility. That is something that many people here will eventually have to deal with, and it is one of the most difficult decisions that any family will have to make.

There are also hospice (terminally ill) issues that she counsels people on as well. I think that this person does a great job with working with the patients and the family though, and feel that God can use almost anyone (just look at Paul and his violent past as an example) to accomplish His work.

i personally have a real problem with the "gays don't go to heaven" bit because it tries to make gay people, who can't help their feelings, act in an unnatural (perverse) way. pretending to be straight is perverse to a homosexual person.

I think what the actual implication here is that practicing homosexuals, rather than those that have same sex attractions, will be condemned. It really boils down to whether or not this is a lifestyle that a person leads, and whether or not they repent from it, and cease to engage in those activities.

it would be like trying to make me (a heterosexual male) take it up the butt from another guy, otherwise i won't go to heaven. i say let's start by editing that line out. but alas it seems the bible is not wikipedia..

According to Biblical law, heterosexuals that practice either adultery or fornication as a lifestyle, are in equal danger. Really, it is a matter of choice.

There are urologists' offices worldwide that are full of cases of people that have sexually transmitted diseases (and certainly not AIDS only), and that number will most certainly continue to climb, and this is reflected in the growing numbers of diagnostic and procedure codes that the doctors are using for these and new strains. There are certain strains of syphilis that have actually grown resistant to antibiotics. Now that is just downright scary.

I've often wondered if atheists, nihilists, and/or naturalists blame mother nature for these plagues too?

regarding US wealth and power, i don't think it stems from some sort of deal with god. i think it stems from an atmosphere of openmindedness which was sort of hardwired into the US constitution.

Well, I think that both points could be true. I believe that God has used America for many purposes, one of which is to illustrate what countries that honor Him can expect from Him. No other country has been as blessed as this country. The economic system here is unrivaled, as an example. Over 50% of the world's largest companies are owned and operated by a country that has 5% of the world's population.

Open mindedness in a democracy is certainly good as well. However, wouldn't you say that there are plenty of other countries that are equally democratic, such as Canada, UK, Australia, and even Sweden? The collective GDP and military power of all of the other democracies mentioned combined is still dwarfed by that of the US.

weirdly enough, there are heavy patterns in eurupean history regarding this, and even weirder, my theory is that it had the result of sort of cementing the idea that the jews are god's chosen people.

Your theory does have some merit, however, the Jews had been in conflict in the middle east thousands of years prior to the European pogroms.

every time a country went crazy with intolerance and threw out, tortured or killed all the jews, that country soon seems to have some sort of financial or military collapse.

Have you ever at least considered the possibility that the Jews actually are God's chosen people? After trying for 5,000 years, isn't mankind certainly clever and evil enough to have wiped all of them out by now?

i don't think it's because of the jews .. i think it's because, as a country, once you have enough spare time to sit around and be intolerant and say "these those or the other fuckers have to go because they are BAD BAD PEOPLE" you have your thumb so far up your ass that you don't much pay attention to fiscal or military matters, any more.

Well, the question does remain; what country or empire has prospered by tormenting the Jews? Naming just one would be great, but I don't think that there are any.

Also, the world currently seems to think that it's okay to commit genocide against other non-Jewish groups as well. Mao and Pol Pot did a great job of that in the 1970's, and people continue to ignore these types of problems to this very day (Rwanda?).

and if you're a country in europe -- which for the last 1500 years was like a cage full of hungry wolves -- that's all it takes. "let's evict or kill all the jews, homos, etc" is the final symptom that that country decayed into some sort of insanity.

I don't know if Antisemitism is a final symptom or not. I do think that Hitler used it as a vehicle in the beginning to eliminate political opponents, and I guess that it eventually became the centerpiece of his entire program, which was certainly unveiled at the Wansee Conference. Hitler wasn't the only one to do this, but he was probably the most well known.

regarding the "moaning about the US while having great benefits from what it's achieved the last 200 years" issue, well i've see many US citiziens do this too =)

that's what the west is all about.. mr smith in in nebraska complaining heavily about the goddamn federal government poking its nose into everything and still exchanging goods and services in legal tender that the federal reserve graciously printed. or herr schmidt and the ECB. etc. bitching is a privilege!

The government does tend to put its beak in frequently where it does not belong. I don't think that the Founding Fathers would exactly be jumping for joy with Mayor Bloomberg's anti-smoking and anti-saturated fat crusades. I feel that if you don't like smoke, go to the non-smoking area, and if you are really worried about excessive fat, you don't have to go to McDonald's- or if you do, don't get a Big Mac, get a salad instead. =)

[NeonVomit]

Jews being God's chosen people etc.etc... what if there IS no God though? That kind of ruins that whle hypothesis...

By claiming America is on some sort of mission from God in any way, in any instance, is treading exceedingly dangerous territory. I advise extreme caution. The people who flew into the WTC thought they were on a mission from God, too.

And yes, infectious diseases and the like are nature's work... after watching a few documentaries, you realise what a cruel, heartless bitch nature is. Beautiful, though...

Please, please, please... don't tell me you believe the world is 6000 years old and was created in 7 days.

[JensJohansson]

According to Biblical law, heterosexuals that practice either adultery or fornication as a lifestyle, are in equal danger. Really, it is a matter of choice.

I understand. I anyway hope Biblical law is wrong, there are a lot of decent practicing homosexuals, fornicators and adulterers out there.

There are urologists' offices worldwide that are full of cases of people that have sexually transmitted diseases (and certainly not AIDS only), and that number will most certainly continue to climb, and this is reflected in the growing numbers of diagnostic and procedure codes that the doctors are using for these and new strains. There are certain strains of syphilis that have actually grown resistant to antibiotics. Now that is just downright scary. I've often wondered if atheists, nihilists, and/or naturalists blame mother nature for these plagues too?

Bacteria were here before us.. to them we are the newcomers, the invaders. Also, to some of them we're... dinner!! Actaully, we'll all end up as bacterial Happy Meals™ one day unless we're incinerated right after death or die in outer space.

To some other bacteria, we're a friendly symbiotic host organism. And they are friendly parasites which we couldn't live without.

I blame mother nature, absolutely, for any disease, no matter how it's transmitted. Inasmuch you can blame her for much of anything since she has given us so much.

(Incidentally, bacterial antibiotics resistance and the resulting arms race between us and bacteria for more and more broad spectrum drugs is neatly explained by evolutionary theories.)

Open mindedness in a democracy is certainly good as well. However, wouldn't you say that there are plenty of other countries that are equally democratic, such as Canada, UK, Australia, and even Sweden? The collective GDP and military power of all of the other democracies mentioned combined is still dwarfed by that of the US.

There are more complex issues at hand I think than just the general godlessness (which does indeed flourish in Sweden). The US as a nation (built on the idea of freedom, religious and other) is a lot less religiously structured than, say Sweden. After all... Sweden's flag has a huge cross right smack in the middle of it!

Your theory does have some merit, however, the Jews had been in conflict in the middle east thousands of years prior to the European pogroms.

Hey, weren't they thrown out of Egypt as well and that country went to total shit shortly thereafter??

Have you ever at least considered the possibility that the Jews actually are God's chosen people? After trying for 5,000 years, isn't mankind certainly clever and evil enough to have wiped all of them out by now?

Well, all my belief systems are basically incompatible with the idea of the creator of the universe singling out 0.2% of Earth's human population for greatness. Then comes the issue of who is a Jew and who is not. The issue of a "Jewish race" (like, Jewishness is genetically determined) being chosen for this or that I find downright troubling.

I could of course consider it, but immediately thousands of very strange questions and loads of cognitive dissonance would pop up.

I also find it weird that some Christians say this; "Jews are the chosen people".. because as unbelievers in christ, how could they get to heaven? All the chosen ones end up in hell with Freddy Mercury, Ellen Degeneres, Keith Haring, Angelina Jolie, Saddam, Hitler and the rest of us? I readily admit that I probably don't understand enough about Christian doctrine though.

Well, the question does remain; what country or empire has prospered by tormenting the Jews? Naming just one would be great, but I don't think that there are any.

Me neither!! In Europe it has just been one country or empire after another... kick them out, and inevitably bad shit starts happening =)

Also, the world currently seems to think that it's okay to commit genocide against other non-Jewish groups as well. Mao and Pol Pot did a great job of that in the 1970's, and people continue to ignore these types of problems to this very day (Rwanda?).

Yeah..

I don't know if Antisemitism is a final symptom or not. I do think that Hitler used it as a vehicle in the beginning to eliminate political opponents, and I guess that it eventually became the centerpiece of his entire program, which was certainly unveiled at the Wansee Conference. Hitler wasn't the only one to do this, but he was probably the most well known.

I like the theory about how he caught syphilis from a Jewish prostitute in Vienna. And it ties in nicely with neurosyphilis perhaps causing him to do some really retarded things (kill Jews, invade Russia, to mention two out of many)

The government does tend to put its beak in frequently where it does not belong. I don't think that the Founding Fathers would exactly be jumping for joy with Mayor Bloomberg's anti-smoking and anti-saturated fat crusades. I feel that if you don't like smoke, go to the non-smoking area, and if you are really worried about excessive fat, you don't have to go to McDonald's- or if you do, don't get a Big Mac, get a salad instead. =)

I don't know if they would be rolling in their graves or thinking "wow, it's still sort of working". Maybe both! =)

They were the completely crazy revolutionaries of their day... generally, to commit treason toward one's king back then was probably as serious to them as if it would be for us to think of someone who's.. well... selling crack to 8-year olds, raping undreage nuns, setting kittens on fire and stomping on them, selling some high-grade suitcase nukes to Iran, and THEN just for the hell of it shooting the President (but only after putting a cigar in the ass of one of his interns).

People were not just killed for treason against the crown, they were very brutally tortured to death.

[htcdude]

The church i'm at we don't believe that we're the only ones going to heaven. We believe anyone who turns from sin, and turns to God, accepting him as the Saviour who died, and rose again, for sinners, and who live their lives for him, will go to heaven. No matter what denomination.

[Stealth]

The church i'm at we don't believe that we're the only ones going to heaven. We believe anyone who turns from sin, and turns to God, accepting him as the Saviour who died, and rose again, for sinners, and who live their lives for him, will go to heaven. No matter what denomination.

Which amounts to saying that your church believes that Christians are the only ones going to heaven...

[htcdude]

That's the whole point of Christianity. Being a Christian, being part of Christ's family, therefore having access to heaven.

[browneyedgirl]

That's the whole point of Christianity. Being a Christian, being part of Christ's family, therefore having access to heaven.

That is the beauty of the concept of Freedom of Religion--people have the right to choose not to believe&people have every right to believe in God, and worship him.
And both sides have the right to discuss their views.