IRAN'S Nuclear Capability

[browneyedgirl]

Just because Miditek states facts about Islam that does not set right with some people does not mean he hates Islam or Muslims. He has stated many times that he has Muslim friends.
Maybe miditek's posts can be tested by some of us actually going to those areas&living there, right in the midst of them. Not as NV did, but actually living among them.
Most Islamic people maybe peaceful in practice, but what do they hold in their heart? Can anybody see that? I thought so.

[TimoTolkki]

Just because Miditek states facts about Islam that does not set right with some people does not mean he hates Islam or Muslims. He has stated many times that he has Muslim friends.
Maybe miditek's posts can be tested by some of us actually going to those areas&living there, right in the midst of them. Not as NV did, but actually living among them.
Most Islamic people maybe peaceful in practice, but what do they hold in their heart? Can anybody see that? I thought so.

Why don´t you let the man answer himself. Also living "there"? Where is that? And who are "them"? And where are "they"?

[NeonVomit]

That was a blatant violation of international laws and can in my opinion be compared to Nazi regime as well, that saw its right to invade any country without any reason other than "lebensraum".

The USA saw Iraq as a threat to its national security, and took action. Well, that's what they said in any case.

Establishing democracy and peace was something they had to do because they realised that the initial reasons they stated for invading were in fact non-existant. And they have a responsibility for at least trying to clean up the country after they messed it up so badly. "Um, yeah, we came for the WMDs but there weren't any, sorry about the mess, bye!" would probably not have sat well with the international community.

Saddam Hussein was a brutal dictator who got what was coming to him, but he at least kept the country in some sort of order. Iraq was already simmering with ethnic tensions (something that Iran does not have) and Saddam's iron fist kept them in check. Good or a bad thing? That's a big question, but I do believe that if a dictator is to be overthrown, it should be by his own people. Is that not part of national self-determination?

As for the majority of Muslims... well, they're pretty normal, really. I don't really care what religion someone is anyway unless they try to push it on me.

[browneyedgirl]

Just because Miditek states facts about Islam that does not set right with some people does not mean he hates Islam or Muslims. He has stated many times that he has Muslim friends.
Maybe miditek's posts can be tested by some of us actually going to those areas&living there, right in the midst of them. Not as NV did, but actually living among them.
Most Islamic people maybe peaceful in practice, but what do they hold in their heart? Can anybody see that? I thought so.

Why don´t you let the man answer himself. Also living "there"? Where is that? And who are "them"? And where are "they"?

Middle East, of course. Right in the midst of the most radical of Muslims. Muslims live all over the world, of course.

Oh, isn't it true Saddam had a portion of the people who lived in Iraq killed because he did not agree with their beliefs?
@Miditek, is that true?

[TimoTolkki]

Just because Miditek states facts about Islam that does not set right with some people does not mean he hates Islam or Muslims. He has stated many times that he has Muslim friends.
Maybe miditek's posts can be tested by some of us actually going to those areas&living there, right in the midst of them. Not as NV did, but actually living among them.
Most Islamic people maybe peaceful in practice, but what do they hold in their heart? Can anybody see that? I thought so.

Why don´t you let the man answer himself. Also living "there"? Where is that? And who are "them"? And where are "they"?

Middle East, of course. Right in the midst of the most radical of Muslims. Muslims live all over the world, of course.

Where is middle east? And is that where the majority of the radical muslims are living?

[NeonVomit]

Not as NV did, but actually living among them.

Erm, I did actually live amongst them, for 9 years. Sure, as expatriates we did sometimes have a blind eye turned to us (without its foreign workers, Saudi Arabia would collapse quite literally overnight), but we had to respect the customs and laws of the place. It was not a pleasant experience.

What does anyone hold in their heart? If anyone could know that about anyone else, the world would be a different place...

[TimoTolkki]

The USA saw Iraq as a threat to its national security, and took action. Well, that's what they said in any case.

With this reasoning almost any country could attack almost any country.

if a dictator is to be overthrown, it should be by his own people. Is that not part of national self-determination?

It depends. If we subscribe to the universal declaration of human rights by UN, then it is not the issue of that country. But whatever actions are taken, they should be done by the international community together.

[TimoTolkki]

Most Islamic people maybe peaceful in practice, but what do they hold in their heart? Can anybody see that? I thought so.

No matter what they hold in their hearts, what they do in practice is what matters. Blaming is not the solution and nationalism neither. If you ask me,
we have lost the game. And by we I mean human race.

[browneyedgirl]

Not as NV did, but actually living among them.

Erm, I did actually live amongst them, for 9 years. Sure, as expatriates we did sometimes have a blind eye turned to us (without its foreign workers, Saudi Arabia would collapse quite literally overnight), but we had to respect the customs and laws of the place. It was not a pleasant experience.

What does anyone hold in their heart? If anyone could know that about anyone else, the world would be a different place...

I just meant that a person can be peaceful in their actions, but still have radical and violent views about issues. Just not act them out or speak them.
But, did you actually live with the Muslims in their homes, socialize with them on a constant daily basis, etc.

[browneyedgirl]

Most Islamic people maybe peaceful in practice, but what do they hold in their heart? Can anybody see that? I thought so.

No matter what they hold in their hearts, what they do in practice is what matters. Blaming is not the solution and nationalism neither. If you ask me,
we have lost the game. And by we I mean human race.

That sounds so depressing. It has not got to that point yet. Humans have existed for thousands of years on this planet&barring a nuclear holocaust, or Jesus return, humans will keep living on. Sure, there will be hard times/perilous times, but Earth&its inhabitants have saw many, many hard times in the past and survived!

[NeonVomit]

I just meant that a person can be peaceful in their actions, but still have radical and violent views about issues. Just not act them out or speak them.

The same can be said about absolutely anyone.

But, did you actually live with the Muslims in their homes, socialize with them on a constant daily basis, etc.

Since the rest of my family is Christian, I didn't 'live' with Muslims in their homes, but I spent enough time visiting friends' houses to get the general idea of what it's like. And it was pretty hard not to socialise and interact with Muslims on a daily basis (go grocery shopping, or out to eat, or fill up the tank, or whatever).

Let's just say I have about as much first-hand experience with Islam as possible for one to have without actually being Muslim.

[NeonVomit]

The USA saw Iraq as a threat to its national security, and took action. Well, that's what they said in any case.

With this reasoning almost any country could attack almost any country.

Yes, it's a very convenient cover-all statement.

if a dictator is to be overthrown, it should be by his own people. Is that not part of national self-determination?

It depends. If we subscribe to the universal declaration of human rights by UN, then it is not the issue of that country. But whatever actions are taken, they should be done by the international community together.

I guess. But generally, countries which get rid of their own dictators (Serbia springs to mind, as does Romania) tend to do better than those who have foreign forces do it for them. Just a thought.

[miditek]

So if you want to play apologist for the mullahs, then I'm all ears if you wish to post your arguments in their defense, and I'll certainly be glad to examine them, and I certainly won't attack you if I disagree with your assessment.

If Iran is actually not a fascist theocracy, please feel free to add any description that you like to this discussion.

But that's the thing, you seem to see anyone who doesn't share your views as an apologist for radical Islam. The whole 'you're with us or against us' mindset is terribly flawed.

Or we could say, "let's play devil's advocate", but essentially both terms are interchangeable, and we're talking politics and religion, and not semantics, right? Are the Madrassas from Afghanistan to the West Bank and Gaza not teaching their kids to hate? Not dressing up their little ones (and I mean little, like 4,5, and 6 years old?) in camo fatigues wearing little plastic suicide belts for photo op sessions for such vaunted publications as Time Magazine and National Geographic?

Now I've not only invited, but encouraged you or Carcass to refute these things. There's no need to quote President Bush and then try and pass it off as one of my posts. Nor have I ever said that all Arabs, or Persians, nor Muslims are bad now, have I?

Does this surrealistic scenario suggest that I also hate Sophia and Lily- my cousin Susan's two young daughters because that are half Persian and already speak Farsi, in addition to English? Have you heard me accuse any of my Arab friends such as Sudki, Nizar, Haseeb, or Mustafa of any wrongdoing of any sort? Of course not, and if you'll recall, I've spoken very highly of their technical abilities, and not to mention their business ethics (something that, quite frankly, is often sorely lacking in the highly Anglocentric business community here in my town). In short, business-wise, I actually trust those guys far more than than most of the Christians that I know, but we've been over this many times before.

Did I not say that the mullahs will absolutely kill their own people, and without hesitation whatsoever? Have we not at least touched upon the subject of some of Sharia's worst excesses, and moreover, whom do you think actually bears the brunt of that seventh century penal code? Why not at the very least give us your own personal assessment of exactly what the current regime that is in power in Tehran should be categorized as? I recall you mentioning that if only Rasfenjani had been elected, that a moderate would make a lot of difference. In your opinion, what makes Rasfenjani more moderate or pro-Western than the current president?

[miditek]

I don´t think that all those radical things Miditek described are really being practiced in a modern Islam. That evolves too.

Well, let's check the other side of the story, and I've provided sources from both the U.S. State Department, as well as Amnesty International- hopefully a little something for everyone.

Saudi Arabia
Country Reports on Human Rights Practices - 2000
Released by the Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor
February 23, 2001

state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2000/nea/817.htm

Amensty International: Saudi Arabia Campaign Website

amnesty.org/ailib/intcam/saudi/

Amensty International Report 2007: Saudi Arabia

thereport.amnesty.org/page/1037/eng/


Iran
Country Reports on Human Rights Practices - 2000
Released by the Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor
February 23, 2001

state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2000/nea/786.htm

Amnesty International Report 2007: Iran
thereport.amnesty.org/eng/Regions/Middle-East-and-North-Africa/Iran


Syria
Country Reports on Human Rights Practices - 2000
Released by the Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor
February 23, 2001

state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2000/nea/820.htm

Amnesty International Report 2007: Syria

thereport.amnesty.org/page/1112/eng/

I have also a bit of a problem with his "Israel has enough firepower to blow the entire ..etc" mentality.

That originally came from a discussion that I was having with a real imam over lunch once. We were debating the status of West Bank and Gaza casualties, and whether it should be considered as "genocide". I used the IDF's actual operational status and capabilities vs. energy (or rounds) actually expended in the conflict vs. the number of casualties, vs. the number of inhabitants in Gaza and the West Bank.

At the end of our conversation, he conceded that 2,000 to 3,000 killed in three or four years did not constitute genocide, but that 26,000,000 Russians most definitely did. That has also been discussed here before.

I don´t know exactly where his hatred for Islam comes from, but I hope it´s not "support our troops" type.

It's always fascinating to see how a discussion about the political pitfalls and dangers of Sharia and the radical mullahs that are still practitioners of it fourteen centuries later could so easily morph into another visit to Islamophobiastan.

I think that most Islamic people are as peace loving as most people are.

I'd like to think that most people in general are peace loving, regardless of the religion or lack thereof. However, it is not necessary to have the support of most everyone in a country in order for a regime to seize and hold on to power. Germany, Iran, and Russia are all perfect examples of this. Nefarious state-level mechanisms such as the Revolutionary Guards, and not to mention the FSB, are two "business models" that come to mind.

Extreme Christians, or extreme whatever ideologists are as easy to manipulate than Muslims.

A simple question: When was the most recent Catholic suicide bomber pulled from the rubble of any shop or restaurant in Jerusalem?

You cannot establish democracy by force, that´s for sure.

Well, the American Revolution itself is one example that does come to mind. I'm also quite sure that General Douglas MacArthur and Admiral Lord Louis Mountbatten would have different opinions on this, in regards to the former Empire of Japan.

I am still saying that our only hope is to establish a council,

What would make this council different than, let's say, the UN Security Council?

That was a blatant violation of international laws and can in my opinion be compared to Nazi regime as well, that saw its right to invade any country without any reason other than "lebensraum".

Lebensraum(living space)? The standard retort typically says that the US is simply there to steal the oil, which at least is a weakly plausible theory, despite that fact that the US strategic reserves (Alaska, Texas, Oklahoma, and
the Gulf of Mexico) are much larger, but Congress and the EPA won't let us drill there!

But lebensraum? (This is killing me...)

The late, great comedian Sam Kinison used to say this in one of his stand-up routines:

"It's the desert! It's the f---ing desert! Nothing grows here, nothing's gonna grow here! Pack your s--t, and get your kids. We're gonna take you to where the food is!"

[TimoTolkki]

I find nothing funny in both Germanys lebensraum and the US "lebesnraum".

[TimoTolkki]

Well, let's check the other side of the story, and I've provided sources from both the U.S. State Department, as well as Amnesty International- hopefully a little something for everyone.

Why not. Here are the figures of the Human Rights reports by the countries (of course you forgot your own). The figures signify the number of the reports in the database of Amnesty:

USA 14 000
Iran 7 930
Iraq 6 820
Lebanon 4 380
Syria 4 230
Saudi Arabia 3 630
Russia 1 520

I don´t know exactly where his hatred for Islam comes from, but I hope it´s not "support our troops" type.

It's always fascinating to see how a discussion about the political pitfalls and dangers of Sharia and the radical mullahs that are still practitioners of it fourteen centuries later could so easily morph into another visit to Islamophobiastan.

From the way you write about the Muslims, it is very easy to draw conclusions like that. If it´s not like that, then that´s good.

Extreme Christians, or extreme whatever ideologists are as easy to manipulate than Muslims.

A simple question: When was the most recent Catholic suicide bomber pulled from the rubble of any shop or restaurant in Jerusalem?

Frequently in Iraq with Tomahawk cruise missiles. And much more victims than in suicide attacks. As you know the whole Jerusalem question is really complex and dates back long long way.

You cannot establish democracy by force, that´s for sure.

Well, the American Revolution itself is one example that does come to mind. I'm also quite sure that General Douglas MacArthur and Admiral Lord Louis Mountbatten would have different opinions on this, in regards to the former Empire of Japan.

You really consider USA to be a true democracy? As long as we continue our destructive path, we cannot have a true democracy because that includes responsibility.

What would make this council different than, let's say, the UN Security Council?

Nothing, because we are not ready for that because every country is only looking after its own interests and try to gain as much influence and power as they can in the world.

That was a blatant violation of international laws and can in my opinion be compared to Nazi regime as well, that saw its right to invade any country without any reason other than "lebensraum".

Lebensraum(living space)?

Yes, lebensraum. If you read my sentence I meant the Germans. Except that "lebensraum" can also be seen as "gaining influence and power" in the world and that is certainly what Bush government is doing.

The standard retort typically says that the US is simply there to steal the oil, which at least is a weakly plausible theory, despite that fact that the US strategic reserves (Alaska, Texas, Oklahoma, and
the Gulf of Mexico) are much larger, but Congress and the EPA won't let us drill there!

Then why is USA in Iraq? You think that none of its oil is being transported to USA?:) There are good reason, at least for Alaska, why the Congress won´t let "you" drill there. I would be more concerned about the 45% greenhouse emission gasses that despite of the promises of the Bush administration have actually i n c r e a s e d.

But lebensraum? (This is killing me...)

I find nothing funny in both Germanys lebensraum and the US "lebesnraum".

[TimoTolkki]

What's the definition of spiritual? I never figured that out. Someone who rejects materialism? Who thinks independently? Doesn't listen to authorities? Doesn't drive a car? Beats me... guess there are as many definitions as there are spiritual people.

You will know the "definition" of spiritual when you are ready for it and live it.
It cannot be explained.

[browneyedgirl]

What's the definition of spiritual? I never figured that out. Someone who rejects materialism? Who thinks independently? Doesn't listen to authorities? Doesn't drive a car? Beats me... guess there are as many definitions as there are spiritual people.

You will know the "definition" of spiritual when you are ready for it and live it.
It cannot be explained.

Thats true. And its also true that no person can subjectively judge the spirituality of someone else. Spirituality is within each person's heart&mind, and the way they treat others every day. Each person knows for themselves how they really feel.

You know, I was wondering why Strato does not have concerts in these Middle-East countries like Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, even Arabia. Maybe they would really enjoy it. Although in some areas, any female in the entourage would be required to bundle up in a burka.Then again, it might not be such a good idea---after all, Muslims do believe Metal Music is Satanic.
How tolerant&open-minded of them.

Well, if Al Gore is elected maybe there will be some understanding at last. After all, Mrs. Gore feels the same way about Metal music as Muslims do!

[NeonVomit]

Muslims do believe Metal Music is Satanic.
How tolerant&open-minded of them.

Well, if Al Gore is elected maybe there will be some understanding at last. After all, Mrs. Gore feels the same way about Metal music as Muslims do!

Many Christians also think Metal is satanic. Why is Metal popular in Turkey (which is predominantly Muslim) and Lebanon if all Muslims have the same view on metal?

The main issue is most countries in which Islam is the predominant faith are not as developed as the western world (which is predominantly Christian). Are their views a matter of society or religion?

Many people tend to generalise an awful lot when it comes to religious groups. I avoid it as much as possible.

[browneyedgirl]

Many people tend to generalise an awful lot when it comes to religious groups.

Yeah, especially when it comes to Christians being the ones judged&generalized.

[TimoTolkki]

Well, if Al Gore is elected maybe there will be some understanding at last. After all, Mrs. Gore feels the same way about Metal music as Muslims do!

I don´t think he will run for the Precidency because he knows what it means if he starts doing the things he has been lecturing about for the last 10 years.

[browneyedgirl]

Well, if Al Gore is elected maybe there will be some understanding at last. After all, Mrs. Gore feels the same way about Metal music as Muslims do!

I don´t think he will run for the Precidency because he knows what it means if he starts doing the things he has been lecturing about for the last 10 years.

What does it mean? Lots of people, including myself, like Al Gore. He has as good a chance as any person in the Democratic party. If you are referring to energy conservation, gas&all that, people have already started looking into alternate ways of energy. Like using ethanol for running cars.
Nothing like the rising price of gas to make people of all political sides more creative.

[TimoTolkki]

What does it mean? Lots of people, including myself, like Al Gore. He has as good a chance as any person in the Democratic party. If you are referring to energy conservation, gas&all that, people have already started looking into alternate ways of energy. Like using ethanol for running cars.
Nothing like the rising price of gas to make people of all political sides more creative.

He will be assasinated. Don´t get me wrong, I love the guy, but he knows what kind of powers he is against at (he got a little taste of it in the last elections already).

[NeonVomit]

Many people tend to generalise an awful lot when it comes to religious groups.

Yeah, especially when it comes to Christians being the ones judged&generalized.

Find me a religious group who won't claim they're the most discriminated against

[NeonVomit]

What does it mean? Lots of people, including myself, like Al Gore. He has as good a chance as any person in the Democratic party. If you are referring to energy conservation, gas&all that, people have already started looking into alternate ways of energy. Like using ethanol for running cars.
Nothing like the rising price of gas to make people of all political sides more creative.

He will be assasinated. Don´t get me wrong, I love the guy, but he knows what kind of powers he is against at (he got a little taste of it in the last elections already).

I don't think he'll be assassinated, but he'll certainly have a hard time. What he says goes against what big buisinesses want, and they're what runs everything anyway.

[TimoTolkki]

What does it mean? Lots of people, including myself, like Al Gore. He has as good a chance as any person in the Democratic party. If you are referring to energy conservation, gas&all that, people have already started looking into alternate ways of energy. Like using ethanol for running cars.
Nothing like the rising price of gas to make people of all political sides more creative.

He will be assasinated. Don´t get me wrong, I love the guy, but he knows what kind of powers he is against at (he got a little taste of it in the last elections already).

I don't think he'll be assassinated, but he'll certainly have a hard time. What he says goes against what big buisinesses want, and they're what runs everything anyway.

"Big businesses" are underestimation. USA uses only to weapons around 340 billion dollars per year. The power of the industrial/military complex, as Eisenhower already warned, is what really rules the world and if you think that they hesitate for a moment to eliminate a threat to their power, then you might be surprised. Also Gore knows this and therefore he will not run for Precidency, which is good, because he is much more useful alive.

[NeonVomit]

What does it mean? Lots of people, including myself, like Al Gore. He has as good a chance as any person in the Democratic party. If you are referring to energy conservation, gas&all that, people have already started looking into alternate ways of energy. Like using ethanol for running cars.
Nothing like the rising price of gas to make people of all political sides more creative.

He will be assasinated. Don´t get me wrong, I love the guy, but he knows what kind of powers he is against at (he got a little taste of it in the last elections already).

I don't think he'll be assassinated, but he'll certainly have a hard time. What he says goes against what big buisinesses want, and they're what runs everything anyway.

"Big businesses" are underestimation. USA uses only to weapons around 340 billion dollars per year. The power of the industrial/military complex, as Eisenhower already warned, is what really rules the world and if you think that they hesitate for a moment to eliminate a threat to their power, then you might be surprised. Also Gore knows this and therefore he will not run for Precidency, which is good, because he is much more useful alive.

Have you ever seen the documentary called 'The Corporation'? It's basically about how big buisiness works. Very depressing. We are all at their mercy.

[miditek]

Just because Miditek states facts about Islam that does not set right with some people does not mean he hates Islam or Muslims. He has stated many times that he has Muslim friends.

No, it does not mean that Miditek hates all Muslims, Islam, Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, or anything else. One of the more common and easily identifiable practices that I've observed in political and religious discussions over the years is that sometimes people will either listen (or read) selectively rather than objectively. After processing what they've heard or read, they then attempt to take dramatic license with the speaker (or writer's) original intent with either the old "find and replace" method, or by simply changing the subject altogether, even when it is obvious that they should simply concede for lack of an appropriate or concrete retort. If all else fails, remaining silent always remains an option.

Oh, isn't it true Saddam had a portion of the people who lived in Iraq killed because he did not agree with their beliefs? @Miditek, is that true?

Saddam's crimes against the Iraqi people, particularly the Kurds and Shiites, are well documented. As I've asked before, "why were the no fly zones over the northern and southern parts of the country necessary following Gulf War I?"

[miditek]

I find nothing funny in both Germanys lebensraum and the US "lebesnraum".

I agree that the general concept of lebensraum is not humorous. However to insinuate that the US is somehow in want or need of said lebensraum, whether it be territorial or otherwise is in my opinion, political theater which is so far off-Broadway that it ends up in Hoboken!

[TimoTolkki]

One of the more common and easily identifiable practices that I've observed in political and religious discussions over the years is that sometimes people will either listen (or read) selectively rather than objectively. After processing what they've heard or read, they then attempt to take dramatic license with the speaker (or writer's) original intent with either the old "find and replace" method, or by simply changing the subject altogether, even when it is obvious that they should simply concede for lack of an appropriate or concrete retort. If all else fails, remaining silent always remains an option.

Of course. And that´s what you do as well. It is important to keep the dialogue going though.