Why do People Hate Jews and Christians?

[Entar]

Perhaps you could enlighten me? How am I being controlled?

There is no meter for faith that determines whether you go to heaven or hell, as even that tiny sparkle of faith, that "what if" may save you. The world today shows how sinful we all are and christians are no less sinful than anyone else. We are all just as unworthy of heaven. It's out of our hands, our own deeds cannot affect it. This isn't about pleasing God so that he saves you. Going to church on sunday does not save you, it is more for you than God.

I don't HAVE TO go to the church to be saved. I don't HAVE TO pay the churchtax whatever to be saved, etc. I can do such things out of gratitude and love towards Jesus, but the church teaches that I will be saved regardless if I have faith. They could be marketing it better, no?

[TimoTolkki]

Perhaps you could enlighten me? How am I being controlled?

There is no meter for faith that determines whether you go to heaven or hell, as even that tiny sparkle of faith, that "what if" may save you. The world today shows how sinful we all are and christians are no less sinful than anyone else. We are all just as unworthy of heaven. It's out of our hands, our own deeds cannot affect it. This isn't about pleasing God so that he saves you. Going to church on sunday does not save you, it is more for you than God.

I don't HAVE TO go to the church to be saved. I don't HAVE TO pay the churchtax whatever to be saved, etc. I can do such things out of gratitude and love towards Jesus, but the church teaches that I will be saved regardless if I have faith. They could be marketing it better, no?

Then you are not following the Christian doctrine. Which is very fine with me. But Christianity is very clear in its dogmas. If you don´t accept Jesus as your saviour, you go to hell. Church is just a way to control people, but true relationship with God is possible only between you and her. And you don´t need Jesus or any religion in between that.
In my opinion we are all "worthy" of heaven. Even the worst murderers.
Words like "worthy" tell me that your God view is authoritarian. That is very common. In generally your God view is the same than the view you have about your parents. But by all means, do what you want to. I am of the opinion that matters of faith are very subjective and relative. As long as there is no violence and selling the whatever religion, it is fine with me.

[Neorave]

Man, my account gets deactivated from changing my email, and this is what I miss. Well, let me see if my theology background can help clarify some things.

We will all find out one day that, indeed, Jesus Christ IS the Son of God!

God has NEVER commanded anyone to believe in Him. He allows ALL of us, small or great, rich or poor, to make our own decisions-- from our lifestyle to what religion(or none)that we choose to follow. God does not sit upon a cloud ready to hurl lightning bolts at us if we do something wrong. He gave us free will instead of making us all jellyfish.

Um, I'm not going to touch the freewill/destiny topic at all, because in one of my classes, we got to discussing the whole topic, and it got really, REALLY complexed. But, this is kind of what I remember from it (don't quote me on it, though): the only way that we know that man has freewill or is controlled is to know the mindset of God. God commands us to do things, but man has the power to either agree or disagree with what God commands us to do. Either way, God works with either choice we have. ...yeah, I think that's kind of how it goes. Basically, it's a little of both, with "trust" in the middle of both of them.

There is absolutely NO proof that Jesus was married or had children. All that theory is is just New Age&Paganist wishful thinking, but I can understand why so many people want it to be so, though.

Indeed! Many sources that state this are from the Gnostic Gospels.

Perhaps you could enlighten me? How am I being controlled?

Technically, it's not much control, but commanded. But the real question is "do I really trust God?". If you trust God that he will guide you through whatever God commands you to do, then it will be done. The freewill part of it can also coincide with trusting God as well. Do I agree to do what God has commanded me, or do I just do my own thing?

There is no meter for faith that determines whether you go to heaven or hell, as even that tiny sparkle of faith, that "what if" may save you. The world today shows how sinful we all are and christians are no less sinful than anyone else. We are all just as unworthy of heaven. It's out of our hands, our own deeds cannot affect it. This isn't about pleasing God so that he saves you. Going to church on sunday does not save you, it is more for you than God.

Actually, that last sentence is wrong, too. I like how my assoicate pastor puts it: "IT'S NOT ABOUT YOU!" Sure, you may be spiritually refreshed and enlightened after a worship service, but the whole point of a corporate worship service is to give back to God, whether it's praise or tithing.

And, yes, you are right in saying that "We are all just as unworthy of heaven." That "it's out of our hands, our own deeds cannot affect it." This is why in corporate confession, we say the following liturgy (or at least something to this extent):

Most merciful God, we confess that we are by nature sinful and unclean. We have sinned agaisnt You in thought, word, and deed, by what we have done and by what we have left undone. We have not loved You with our whole heart; we have not loved our neighbors as ourselves. We justly deserve Your present and eternal punishment. For the sake of Your Son, Jesus Christ, have mercy on us. Forgive us, renew us, and lead us, so that we may delight in Your will and walk in Your ways to the glory of Your holy name. Amen.

I don't HAVE TO go to the church to be saved. I don't HAVE TO pay the churchtax whatever to be saved, etc. I can do such things out of gratitude and love towards Jesus, but the church teaches that I will be saved regardless if I have faith. They could be marketing it better, no?

If the church teaches this, ask the pastors why this is taught. If they don't give a good answer, get out. I've dealt with a couple of churches that have some funky doctrines.

Then you are not following the Christian doctrine. Which is very fine with me. But Christianity is very clear in its dogmas. If you don´t accept Jesus as your saviour, you go to hell. Church is just a way to control people, but true relationship with God is possible only between you and her. And you don´t need Jesus or any religion in between that.

If you do not accept Jesus as your personal Savior, then you will be judge righteously when the time comes. Read John 5:31-47.

In my opinion we are all "worthy" of heaven. Even the worst murderers.
Words like "worthy" tell me that your God view is authoritarian. That is very common. In generally your God view is the same than the view you have about your parents. But by all means, do what you want to. I am of the opinion that matters of faith are very subjective and relative. As long as there is no violence and selling the whatever religion, it is fine with me.

I will not whether your opinion is right or wrong, because it is your opinion. But, as I stated above, we are all sinners who deserve damnation. It is through the saving grace of Jesus that we live and avoid the power of death.

Actually, I am willing to try to clarify some misconceptions about Christianity if people want to PM me questions about it. But anyway, there's my blabber on virtual paper.

[browneyedgirl]

Thanks, Neorave, for your post!

Actualy it was Jesus himself who founded the Christian religion: "Upon this Rock I will build my Church&the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against it!"

Its easy to see why lots of folks want Jesus to be "just a man". That way, these doubters can use theor theories as a good excuse for spreading their Venom&hate for the Christian religion. For example, on a forum once, a Pagan posted, "I wish all these Christians would get raptured so that everyone else in the world can have peace!" This statement is just as hateful as these White Separatists who hate Jews&Blacks!
People have a right to believe the way they want to, and that includes Christians, too.

As far as Me being a spokesperson for the Vatican, that has to be the biggest laugh! Thanks, TT, I needed a good laugh! Actually, I am not technically a Christian because Christanity is not just a belief, its a lifestyle&a lifestyle which requires much strength and moral fortitude. Yes, I have the faith, but as Neorave so beautifully put it, it is about what we can give to God&if we cannot give to Him what he needs, then its something lacking there. I'm honest enough to admit I do fall short of what God requires.

TT, if you really believe the things you do about the Bible and all, what do you get from it as you read it? Is it just a book of lies&fairy tales? Something to just analyze and pick apart? Do you scoff&laugh at what is written within God's inspired word? Would you just as soon wipe your butt on it? Do you think we who believe the Christian belief are just fools? I mean, how do you really feel?

It never ceases to amaze me that the same people who scoff&criticize the Bible&Christanity&make fun of it will swallow basicly the same philosophy if it is presented by some New Age guru or agnostic philospher. "The Secret", for example. Jesus was preaching the tenets of that New Age adaptation 2 thousand years ago! "What a man thinketh in his heart, so shall he be."

But, yes, I agree about one thing---thee IS going to be a New Ages&it is going to come with a price and much sacrifice. The New Age will commence when Jesus Christ comes to make everything right. Only then will it be a Utopia, made for those who deserve it in Gods sight. God will not play favorites or be selective. He will be fair in who He picks to live in this perfect paradise. And, once again, I can understand why people don't want to believe in Heaven or Hell, either.
And when the Judgement Day does come it will indeed be a sorrowful day for those who have mounted treasures&pleasures on Earth because they will know their little "joyride" is over!
That will be the day when the rejected, downtrodden, and castaways of this world will finally get a reward IF they have put their trust and faith in God!
Just think----how short this life is compared with eternity! Thats the Hope for the hopeless. To be Cool in the Eyes of God will make up for all the times the downtrodden have been rejected as nobodies on Earth. The lame will be healed, the blind will see&all will be made perfect.

In the meantime, there is much work to do--to help the poor, preach the mesage, and give others a sense of self--to tell people they are acceptable just the way they are!

I tried the New Age thing&I was told by a know-all that I was not good enough to believe Paganism. Can you imagine that? In a world where religions&beliefs are supposed to be free! I was told I was not worthy!(I still have the letter to prove she said that) Well, maybe I should be grateful because Christanity&God accepts me, warts&all, and I can bloom in the belief and knowledge that GOD loves me for myself--119 IQ, brown eyes, redneck, and all.
With Mankind people have to constantly prove themselves, but with God all you have to do is believe, have faith&live as God means to be a good person. Christians are just humans, no more&no less. There are bad Churstians&good Christians, and in the end, its up to God to sort it out.

[TimoTolkki]

TT, if you really believe the things you do about the Bible and all, what do you get from it as you read it? Is it just a book of lies&fairy tales?

I don´t consider the bible as being any kind of source of authority or a word of "God", but a book written by men over the centuries. And this can be proven, since there are documents about it: that it was Constantine that put it together and tailored it according to his own purposes and made Jesus divine to make it much more effective. And bible is the only source and reference for a Christian belief. The only source.

Something to just analyze and pick apart? Do you scoff&laugh at what is written within God's inspired word?

To me, it´s not "God´s" word. It´s men´s word who say it´s God´s word.

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Would you just as soon wipe your butt on it?

Hey, that´s a great idea! A lot to wipe. Both my ass and the bible

Do you think we who believe the Christian belief are just fools? I mean, how do you really feel?

Not at all. I think Christianity has some excellent values. If someone finds happiness thorough it, it is good for them. However, Christians don´t usually allow the same freedom to you, since they consider themselves to be the only true God´s religion and usually think it is okay to feed it to others who don´t want it.

It never ceases to amaze me that the same people who scoff&criticize the Bible&Christanity&make fun of it will swallow basicly the same philosophy if it is presented by some New Age guru or agnostic philospher.

I don´t subscribe to any religion and any "new age" religion is the same thing. My ideas are the result of my own thinking and through the events of life, I have arrived at them.

The New Age will commence when Jesus Christ comes to make everything right. Only then will it be a Utopia, made for those who deserve it in Gods sight. God will not play favorites or be selective. He will be fair in who He picks to live in this perfect paradise. And, once again, I can understand why people don't want to believe in Heaven or Hell, either.
And when the Judgement Day does come it will indeed be a sorrowful day for those who have mounted treasures&pleasures on Earth because they will know their little "joyride" is over!
That will be the day when the rejected, downtrodden, and castaways of this world will finally get a reward IF they have put their trust and faith in God!

There it is. The full cruel Christian doctrine, straight out of the bible. Not from God. But from man.

In the meantime, there is much work to do--to help the poor, preach the mesage, and give others a sense of self--to tell people they are acceptable just the way they are!

Yes. Except preaching the "message" is hardly the answer

I tried the New Age thing&I was told by a know-all that I was not good enough to believe Paganism. Can you imagine that?

Yes I can. The problem is that you make it sound like trying a pair of jeans. It´s not that easy. It is very difficult.

In a world where religions&beliefs are supposed to be free! I was told I was not worthy!(I still have the letter to prove she said that) Well, maybe I should be grateful because Christanity&God accepts me, warts&all, and I can bloom in the belief and knowledge that GOD loves me for myself--119 IQ, brown eyes, redneck, and all.

There´s lot of bullshit out there. I´m happy you can bloom.

With Mankind people have to constantly prove themselves, but with God all you have to do is believe, have faith&live as God means to be a good person.

See, that is the problem. With Christianity, you have to believe. How can you "have to" believe? Believing is not an act of will. And neither is loving.
The are processes. And love is not a feeling. It is a process

[TimoTolkki]

Then you are not following the Christian doctrine. Which is very fine with me. But Christianity is very clear in its dogmas. If you don´t accept Jesus as your saviour, you go to hell. Church is just a way to control people, but true relationship with God is possible only between you and her. And you don´t need Jesus or any religion in between that.

If you do not accept Jesus as your personal Savior, then you will be judge righteously when the time comes. Read John 5:31-47.

There are many references in the bible about the hell you will end up, if you don´t accept Jesus as your saviour. Most from the man himself. If you have a Theologian background, you should know this. weird.

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. (Matthew 25:41)

[NeonVomit]

I have a question. Why is questioning anything related to Christianity so discouraged by those at the top? If the leaders of the church are so convinced of the truth, then why would they not like people questioning and inquiring about the nature of their faith? Aren't true believers who have arrived to a conclusion on their own much preferable to sheep? (but then again, the church does seem to liken its followers to sheep, with parishes being referred to as 'flocks' and the whole 'The Lord Is My Shephard' thing)

It was this, more than anything, that made me lose interest in anything the church had to say. If I could not be a free thinker, then I didn't want any part of it. I can't help being inquisitive, it's part of who I am... telling me not to be would be telling me to stop being myself.

[TimoTolkki]

I have a question. Why is questioning anything related to Christianity so discouraged by those at the top?

Not only at the top. Most Christians become very angry when you question their beliefs, but they usually are very eager to question your beliefs without any respect to your own beliefs. And they justify it with the bible of course:)
That´s really all they have.

It was this, more than anything, that made me lose interest in anything the church had to say. If I could not be a free thinker, then I didn't want any part of it. I can't help being inquisitive, it's part of who I am... telling me not to be would be telling me to stop being myself.

Forget about the word freedom when you speak about any religion. They have their rules and dogmas.
Never be afraid to be who you really are and think freely. And never let anyone to scare you off with their "eternal damnations" and "Judgment days" etc etc. These people will not change, so it is fruitless to even have a dialogue with them, because usually their answers are just bible quotes.
Let them have their way, althought they probably don´t let you have yours.
There´s a whole new world out there if you manage to undo all the brainwashing of thousands of years.
I can recommend these books if you are interested:

Neale Donald Walsch: Conversations with God I-III

Excellent books, I can highly recommend.

[NeonVomit]

Thanks Timo, I'll look out for them when I return to London later this week.

You should post a recommended reading list somewhere...

[browneyedgirl]

Timo, its funny how you say Christianity is a "have-to" religion when these New Age&Pagan based beliefs are the most "have-to" religions that exist!

Once again, Christianity accepts people as they are---nobody has to prove their intellect, or knowledge, or stuff of that nature.

Oh, I tried on Paganism like a pair of jeans, huh? That shows how little you know about it. After much study&reflection, my belief was coldly rejected and I was told I was not good enough as a person to believe Paganism.
People, ALL people, have a righ to believe what they want to. But, hey, whenever a person with a sincere&good heart is rejected by a religion, its time to move on.

And, Timo, you can take the cold-blooded logic&stick it where the sun does not shine! I'll take faith any 'ol day!
As far as love goes, that has to come from each individual----thats something we all will have to answer for someday.
And, God does not want sycophants, he wants people who really feel&believe His word, and lives it because faith without works does not really mean much.

[TimoTolkki]

Timo, its funny how you say Christianity is a "have-to" religion when these New Age&Pagan based beliefs are the most "have-to" religions that exist!

I haven´t said "New Age&Pagan religions" are not "have-to" religions.
I have said I don´t care about religions.

Once again, Christianity accepts people as they are---nobody has to prove their intellect, or knowledge, or stuff of that nature.

If you follow the gospels and the Christian doctrine, then your statement is hopelessly false. According to the doctrine there are number of things you have to do or be to "prove" your worthiness to the "Christian punishing God idea".

Oh, I tried on Paganism like a pair of jeans, huh? That shows how little you know about it.

You don´t "try out" religions like different ice cream flavours. True faith can only be born from a natural way and that is to pay attention to what is happening in your life, because that is the place where universe is directly influencing you. That´s why I believe all religions are false and cannot serve any other purpose than to control humans for some purpose.
Roman Catholic Church is the worst manipulator on the planet today.

People, ALL people, have a righ to believe what they want to. But, hey, whenever a person with a sincere&good heart is rejected by a religion, its time to move on.

Yes of course.

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And, Timo, you can take the cold-blooded logic&stick it where the sun does not shine! I'll take faith any 'ol day!

Love, Faith and Logic is a combination that is far from cold blooded.

As far as love goes, that has to come from each individual----thats something we all will have to answer for someday.

Love is inside yes. But it´s also everywhere and it´s weaved to the whole process of the evolving universe. It´s the glue that keep it together.
We don´t have to "answer" for anything. Whatever we do, has consequences already here in our present lives. And "answer for" is yet another Christian way to scare and spread fear. Love God but fear "him".
You cannot love anyone you fear. This is fake love. It´s forced out of fear and therefore cannot be based on honesty.

And, God does not want sycophants, he wants people who really feel&believe His word, and lives it because faith without works does not really mean much.

This is a Christian bible God talking.

[Neorave]

Then you are not following the Christian doctrine. Which is very fine with me. But Christianity is very clear in its dogmas. If you don´t accept Jesus as your saviour, you go to hell. Church is just a way to control people, but true relationship with God is possible only between you and her. And you don´t need Jesus or any religion in between that.

If you do not accept Jesus as your personal Savior, then you will be judge righteously when the time comes. Read John 5:31-47.

There are many references in the bible about the hell you will end up, if you don´t accept Jesus as your saviour. Most from the man himself. If you have a Theologian background, you should know this. weird.

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. (Matthew 25:41)

My reference was focused more towards the message from Book of Revelations, because by the time the Son of Man comes to pass judgement, hell will be no more. So, who knows what will happen to the unfaithful. Now, yes, your reference to Matthew 25:41 could be towards hell, but consider that this is within the context of the End Times.

[miditek]

God commands us to do things, but man has the power to either agree or disagree with what God commands us to do. Either way, God works with either choice we have. ...yeah, I think that's kind of how it goes.

It's a theological concept that is known as Divine Providence, and although not specifically mentioned in the Bible, indicates that God is so powerful that he can use the events and actions of mankind to fulfill His will and ultimate goals. imho- the Book of Esther, one of my favorites by the way, is a great example of Divine Providence, and in fact, curiously enough, God's name is conspicuously absent here. Although it is rather evident that God's hand is working quietly "behind the scenes".

There is absolutely NO proof that Jesus was married or had children. All that theory is is just New Age& Paganist wishful thinking, but I can understand why so many people want it to be so, though.

Indeed! Many sources that state this are from the Gnostic Gospels.

And the Gnostic gospels are considered at least somewhat or downright heretical by nearly all denominations of the Church, and are not taught nor accepted. C.S. Lewis had a positively brilliant rebuttal to Pantheism, which is worth a mention:

"But if by using the word 'infinite' we encourage ourselves to think of Him as a formless 'everything' about whom nothing in particular and everything in general is true, then it would be better to drop that word altogether. Let us dare say that God is a particular Thing. Once He was the only Thing: but He is creative. He made other things to be. He is not those other things. He is not a 'universal being': if He were there would be no creatures, for a generality can make nothing. He is an 'absolute being' or rather, the Absolute Being- in the sense that He alone exists in His own right. But there are things which God is not. In that sense He has a determinate character. Thus, He is righteous, not amoral; creative, not inert. The Hebrew writings here observe an admirable balance. Once God simply says "I AM", proclaiming the mystery of self-existence. But times without number He says "I am the Lord", I, the ultimate Fact, have this determinate character and not that. And men are exhorted to 'know the Lord', to discover and experience in this particular character. " C.S. Lewis from "Miracles".

Then you are not following the Christian doctrine. Which is very fine with me. But Christianity is very clear in its dogmas. If you don´t accept Jesus as your saviour, you go to hell. Church is just a way to control people, but true relationship with God is possible only between you and her. And you don´t need Jesus or any religion in between that.

It's really not about control, as much as it is about acceptance, and above all,trust. God, of course, certainly wants his children to at least try to emulate Jesus as a role model, however God also wants each individual to retain their own distinctive identity.The Potter and clay metaphor works great here; God wants to shape each individual with positive influence and protection in order for each distinctive individual to become the person that God created and intended for them to actually be! What an awesome thought! What it is essentially means is that God really is that interested in even what we would consider the most minute details of our lives!

While we're on that classic subject of Jesus or Hell, let's take a brief look at a fictional perception from the "Other Side", from Lewis's the Screwtape Letters, a classic account of spiritual warfare in the ongoing battle for the souls of men.

"My Dear Wormwood,

I note with grave displeasure that your patient has become a Christian: Do not indulge the hope that you will escape the usual penalties; indeed, I trust you would hardly even wish to do so. In the meantime, we must make the best of the situation. There is no need to despair; hundreds of these adult converts have been reclaimed after a brief sojourn in the Enemy's camp and are now with us. All the habits of the patient, both mentally and bodily, are still in our favor...

Keep everything hazy in his mind right now, and your will have all eternity wherein to amuse yourself by producing in him the peculiar kind of clarity that Hell affords.

Your affectionate uncle,

Screwtape"
C.S. Lewis "the Screwtape Letters"

[Neorave]

miditek, you definitely summed it up very well. I especially liked that you included some C.S. Lewis references.

[TimoTolkki]

God commands us to do things, but man has the power to either agree or disagree with what God commands us to do. Either way, God works with either choice we have. ...yeah, I think that's kind of how it goes.

It's a theological concept that is known as Divine Providence, and although not specifically mentioned in the Bible, indicates that God is so powerful that he can use the events and actions of mankind to fulfill His will and ultimate goals. imho- the Book of Esther, one of my favorites by the way, is a great example of Divine Providence, and in fact, curiously enough, God's name is conspicuously absent here. Although it is rather evident that God's hand is working quietly "behind the scenes".

There is absolutely NO proof that Jesus was married or had children. All that theory is is just New Age& Paganist wishful thinking, but I can understand why so many people want it to be so, though.

Indeed! Many sources that state this are from the Gnostic Gospels.

And the Gnostic gospels are considered at least somewhat or downright heretical by nearly all denominations of the Church, and are not taught nor accepted. C.S. Lewis had a positively brilliant rebuttal to Pantheism, which is worth a mention:

"But if by using the word 'infinite' we encourage ourselves to think of Him as a formless 'everything' about whom nothing in particular and everything in general is true, then it would be better to drop that word altogether. Let us dare say that God is a particular Thing. Once He was the only Thing: but He is creative. He made other things to be. He is not those other things. He is not a 'universal being': if He were there would be no creatures, for a generality can make nothing. He is an 'absolute being' or rather, the Absolute Being- in the sense that He alone exists in His own right. But there are things which God is not. In that sense He has a determinate character. Thus, He is righteous, not amoral; creative, not inert. The Hebrew writings here observe an admirable balance. Once God simply says "I AM", proclaiming the mystery of self-existence. But times without number He says "I am the Lord", I, the ultimate Fact, have this determinate character and not that. And men are exhorted to 'know the Lord', to discover and experience in this particular character. " C.S. Lewis from "Miracles".

Then you are not following the Christian doctrine. Which is very fine with me. But Christianity is very clear in its dogmas. If you don´t accept Jesus as your saviour, you go to hell. Church is just a way to control people, but true relationship with God is possible only between you and her. And you don´t need Jesus or any religion in between that.

It's really not about control, as much as it is about acceptance, and above all,trust. God, of course, certainly wants his children to at least try to emulate Jesus as a role model, however God also wants each individual to retain their own distinctive identity.The Potter and clay metaphor works great here; God wants to shape each individual with positive influence and protection in order for each distinctive individual to become the person that God created and intended for them to actually be! What an awesome thought! What it is essentially means is that God really is that interested in even what we would consider the most minute details of our lives!

While we're on that classic subject of Jesus or Hell, let's take a brief look at a fictional perception from the "Other Side", from Lewis's the Screwtape Letters, a classic account of spiritual warfare in the ongoing battle for the souls of men.

"My Dear Wormwood,

I note with grave displeasure that your patient has become a Christian: Do not indulge the hope that you will escape the usual penalties; indeed, I trust you would hardly even wish to do so. In the meantime, we must make the best of the situation. There is no need to despair; hundreds of these adult converts have been reclaimed after a brief sojourn in the Enemy's camp and are now with us. All the habits of the patient, both mentally and bodily, are still in our favor...

Keep everything hazy in his mind right now, and your will have all eternity wherein to amuse yourself by producing in him the peculiar kind of clarity that Hell affords.

Your affectionate uncle,

Screwtape"
C.S. Lewis "the Screwtape Letters"

Sigh....

[TimoTolkki]

Then you are not following the Christian doctrine. Which is very fine with me. But Christianity is very clear in its dogmas. If you don´t accept Jesus as your saviour, you go to hell. Church is just a way to control people, but true relationship with God is possible only between you and her. And you don´t need Jesus or any religion in between that.

If you do not accept Jesus as your personal Savior, then you will be judge righteously when the time comes. Read John 5:31-47.

There are many references in the bible about the hell you will end up, if you don´t accept Jesus as your saviour. Most from the man himself. If you have a Theologian background, you should know this. weird.

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. (Matthew 25:41)

My reference was focused more towards the message from Book of Revelations, because by the time the Son of Man comes to pass judgement, hell will be no more. So, who knows what will happen to the unfaithful. Now, yes, your reference to Matthew 25:41 could be towards hell, but consider that this is within the context of the End Times.

Sigh...so enlighten me. According to the Christian doctrine, what happens to a person that doesn´t "accept" Christ as his/her savior?
And what happens to a person that "accepts"?

[NeonVomit]

Another inconsistency that I've always found strange. If Jews are God's chosen people, then why are they going to go to hell since they don't accept Christ as the son of God?

[htcdude]

They were the chosen people because though them would come the Saviour, Christ

[TimoTolkki]

Another inconsistency that I've always found strange. If Jews are God's chosen people, then why are they going to go to hell since they don't accept Christ as the son of God?

Don´t bother...just do your own thinking and you will find your way. I also should learn that lesson, but it is very tempting to get into discussion with people who consider the bible as the absolute truth. And some of these people, like Miditek for example are highly intelligent as well. Well, live and let live.

[NeonVomit]

They were the chosen people because though them would come the Saviour, Christ

So they're not God's chosen people anymore?

God: 'Thanks for the assist guys, but we don't need you anymore. It's not too bad down there. Ciao!'

[NeonVomit]

Ooh ooh here's a good one:

Ok, so if those who do not accept Christ as their saviour go to hell, what happens to everyone who died before the birth of Christ? Do all the souls in heaven of those who didn't believe in Christ get transferred down there?

[TimoTolkki]

Ooh ooh here's a good one:

Ok, so if those who do not accept Christ as their saviour go to hell, what happens to everyone who died before the birth of Christ? Do all the souls in heaven of those who didn't believe in Christ get transferred down there?

Trust me man, what you are trying is pointless...
You asked some books, you could read these in addition to Conversations with God:

Dan Millman: No Ordinary Moments
M Scott Peck: Road Less Travelled
Wilhelm Reich: any biography you can find, but Myron Sharafs is a good one
Wilhelm Reich: Sexual Revolution
Erich Fromm: The Anatomy of human destructiveness
Erich Fromm: The art of loving

These are a good start. I challenge you to from your own way of thinking, to pay attention to your life events since you were a child, to stay away from anyone who claims they know the absolute truth, and to stay away from rigid dogmatic religions that control people with fear and punishment, just like how most parents raise up their children.
For the sake of your own well being, I don´t recommend you to enter into dialoque with any person who thinks the bible is an absolute truth.

[NeonVomit]

I challenge you to from your own way of thinking, to pay attention to your life events since you were a child, to stay away from anyone who claims they know the absolute truth, and to stay away from rigid dogmatic religions that control people with fear and punishment, just like how most parents raise up their children.
For the sake of your own well being, I don´t recommend you to enter into dialoque with any person who thinks the bible is an absolute truth.

I know, I arrived at very similar conclusions myself. I gave up on organised religion at around 16 and have been trying to find my own path since.
It was the whole 'don't question' thing that did it for me, although a number of other factors played a part... by telling me to stop being who I am, I totally rejected it. My parents weren't too happy about it, but they said 'you're old enough to make your own decisions in such matters now'. They're both quite religious, but have always encouraged me to think for myself and be my own person. For this I am very greatful.

I don't shy away from confrontation, but I don't seek it either.

I am just curious how people who take the bible as an absolute truth approach these... inconsistancies. My favourite one is 'where did Cain find his wife?'

Thanks for the booklist Timo! I'll start getting my hands on those.

[JensJohansson]

My favourite one is 'where did Cain find his wife?'

I will refrain from writing something sadistically logical, offensive and funny here.

Language is a very flexible tool. It is our meta-tool, our Ur-tool. Without that tool, the most complicated tool we would be using is probably a stick to get ants out of an ant hill.

If you care to dive into the Bible, it should at best be interpreteted largely as metaphor, even if some Christians will scoff at this. But if you consider how long ago these texts were written, it makes more sense than interpreting it literally with the meanings we attach to the symbols of language today.

All the words in a language are in some sense a meta-metaphor, a mapping between a symbol (this symbol is a "word", a sound, or something written that in its turn maps to that sound) and something in reality, with varying degrees of overlap, coherence, and agreeance in the definitions between two individuals, between ten individuals, between the people who used that language 2000 years ago, between the native speakers of a language now, beteen all the people on earth living now who have a passing knowledge of that language, etc.

For instance, if someone speaks of a computer bug, of course I don't think of an actual insect. But it is possible that someone who has never heard this idiom might think of an actual bug and be a bit confused. If someone speaks of the legs of a table, I personally am not going to think of a table can walk around by itself. But someone from 20000 years ago might, without clearly understanding what a "table" even would be. Etc.

So there will always, always, always be word definition issues whenever there is communication with words. And often these issues will pass silent, unnoticed. Because we can speak words, but we can never know for sure if they mean the same to us as to the person we speak them to, or if they are even understood.

This is especially true if the communication is one way, like if you write a book rather than have a conversation face to face.

"In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God" makes more sense to me than the beginning of Genesis. I'll hastily add that by Genesis I don't mean that band with Phil Collins and by God I probably mean something vastly different than you do.

These are all mightily complicated issues, like most other important things in life. The actual literality of the Bible doesn't bother me as much as it used to. Words are words. It's only the various mappings people make between words and reality that can be meaningfully discussed. The mapping knowledge = truth is very bothersome to me whether it's in the Bible or somewhere else.

Knowledge is knowledge and is by definition subjective. Truth can not be anything than the totality of all of reality. The actual reality, not any set of words we map to it and try to describe it with, whether it's bible verse or a set of equations. Any symbolic mapping to Truth will be woefully inadequate.

One of the things that bothers me about the various religious versions of Truth -- and the Bible is one example because it's the one I'm most familiar with -- is that there is a proselytizing aspect built in, and it applies to unverifiable things. There are purported penalties for not believing, and admonitions such as "Go to all the nations and make disciples. Baptize them and teach them my commands."

You could argue that "evangelism is one beggar telling another beggar where to find bread." But this often morphs into one beggar telling the other beggar he will be incinerated unless he only eats one specific kind of bread.

And that in its turn sometimes (of course not always) morphs into truly psychotic people twisting this into "this bread is so good that we will now outlaw all other types of food" and "you'd better eat this bread, and tell other people how good it is, or I'll fucking bash your head in". Or "great, we all eat bread now, so give me ten percent of what you make and let's kill people who don't like bread".

With for instance Newton's theory of gravitation, calculus, Darwin's theory of evolution, the theory of relativity, etc, there is definitely no proselytizing aspect built in to the actual ideas. They are limited in scope -- they each only purport to describe or explain a very limited area of reality. And it is readily understood by everyone that if they can't be verified by others, if they are found to map poorly to reality, or should we find that they turn out to be less useful, they will just end up being superseded, refined or completely discarded.

Christianity got subverted and used as a method of state control, so for some weird reason I feel like ending this post with a video of a russian claymation crocodile:


<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/QMRFuJiTHIw"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/QMRFuJiTHIw" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>


Of course people like miditek will correctly identify this as an example of Soviet propaganda. But on another level it's also a nice song about a crocodile celebrating his birthday even when it rains

[miditek]

Ooh ooh here's a good one:

Ok, so if those who do not accept Christ as their saviour go to hell, what happens to everyone who died before the birth of Christ? Do all the souls in heaven of those who didn't believe in Christ get transferred down there?

Well, there are plenty of examples that can provide an acceptable explanation regarding the status of the Jews, as well as those that lived and died prior to the First Coming of Christ.

For instance, the account of the Transfiguration in the synoptic gospels (the first three books) shows Christ having a conversation with Moses and Elijah (whom are making a post-incarnate appearance here, as both had been dead for hundreds of years). Peter then said, "Lord let us make three temples; one for You, one for Moses, and then one for Elijah." Then the Spirit of God the Father appeared from the clouds and said, "This is My beloved Son, hear Him!"

Also, the Old Covenant that God made with the Jews regarding perpetual deed and title to the state of Israel is irrevocable, since God never goes back on His word, although He has punished them over the centuries for their idolatry and non-belief. Yet, we are seeing a small, but growing, movement of Messianic (those that accept Ye'shua as Deity) Jews that is growing on a worldwide scale that now numbers several hundred thousand- a congregation that at one time did not exist at all. At least two hundred Messianic congregations exist here in the United States, and moreover, interestingly enough, the museum that has documented these communities (The World Messianic Museum) exists right here in my city. This is an organization comprised entirely of Jews and is specifically for Jews that wish to retain their Jewish identity while accepting Ye'shua as the long promised Messiah- and exists outside of the realm of the official Church itself.

There is really no need to fear discussions or dialogue with Christians such as myself, since I am condemning no one, and in fact, pray for both yourself, Jens, as well as Tolkki, from time to time. imho- I believe that two of you are rather quite angry with God for reasons that (may be obvious to some), but are truly known only to themselves, while the other is simply not so sure, and prefers to be influenced by only one opinion, (the opinion of what others may think of him) rather than looking at all opinions and then really thinking for himself.

In other words, we've all had far too many and lengthy discussions (about a wide range of topics) over a long period of time for anyone to feel truly offended at this point.

[nepi]

Wow! I've passed the last few days without this forum and look, new huge discussions are around! I haven't read anything but many posts inbetween from BEG, Tolkki and miditek...

I am a Christ too and no-one forced me to be one. My parents let me grew up in this religion, but finally I can decide for myself if I want to stay as a Christ or not and I decided to go this way. I have some experience which indicates there is a God and that's the reason I believe in!
Well, the bible, it's a 2000 years old book and the story has been written so many times that some sequences are far away from he original, but the content *I think* is still the same.
I know, the Christians have done a lot of bad things in the middle age, the Jesuits, the burning of witches and so on, there was a time where you had to be Christ, otherwise you had a hard live! But today it is everybodys decision and if I had not been a Christ since today, I am sure I would not believe I have to go to hell...

Tolkki, I really wonder about following questions:

- have you had a religious childhood?
- did your parents educate you strong in religion?
- any years ago (doesn't matter how long); did you believe in God?
- have you had some bad experience which changed your meaning about religion?

maybe some questions are too personal for you so I just ask and just answer what you want..... I would be very interested in your answer.

[TimoTolkki]

There is really no need to fear discussions or dialogue with Christians such as myself, since I am condemning no one, and in fact, pray for both yourself, Jens, as well as Tolkki, from time to time. imho- I believe that two of you are rather quite angry with God for reasons that (may be obvious to some), but are truly known only to themselves

This is really typical Christian arrogance. To pray for someone else because you think they need "salvation or whatever". I´m telling you now that I don´t want you to pray for me. And my relationship with what you call "God" is strictly between me and her and has absolutely nothing to do with you. So keep also those opinions to yourself please.

I also cannot resist the temptation that the snake of paradise is now putting on me. But have a good laugh:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVseBfMq_Dc

[TimoTolkki]

I am a Christ too and no-one forced me to be one. My parents let me grew up in this religion, but finally I can decide for myself if I want to stay as a Christ or not and I decided to go this way. I have some experience which indicates there is a God and that's the reason I believe in!

I hope you mean you are a Christian and not Christ himself.

Tolkki, I really wonder about following questions:

- have you had a religious childhood? no

- did your parents educate you strong in religion? no

- any years ago (doesn't matter how long); did you believe in God?

First you would have to define "God". If you read my posts you know what I mean with this. I believe..no like Carl Jung said, I know there is a "God".
But very different from any "God of religion". I call it simply Universe and it has no religion but love.

- have you had some bad experience which changed your meaning about religion?

no, except of course it pisses me off when you are being fed the same lies since you are in school. It is not a secret that I think that the whole church/society/country unholy trinity is in my opinion completely fucked up. And if it wouldnt be then why there are so many bad things happening.
Why is homo sapiens so fucked up. And the Christian answer is of course (insert drum rolling here...tadaaaa!!!) : SATAN We are divided into countries out of fear since thousands of years and what we should do is to be united as a human race. There are some studies made with tribes that live isolated from "civilisation". Completely healthy, no neurotic behaviour, healthy sexuality without guilt feelings or shame. Enters white man with his "civilised ways" inluding religion. And suddenly fear, authoritarian way to live is present and what a surprise: enter violence, neuroses, fear.

Our so called "industrialized civilization" and the inheritance of punitive God that gives us "free will" (none of us has free will, human organism and psyche is too complicated to have a completely unbiased free will) and puts some of us to hell, all the wars and violence and destruction of the ecosystem out of greed is a sign to me that we are one fucked up race.
Hard core Christians see all this as "Armageddon" and see it as "the bible has forseen" If there is Armageddon foretold, then it must be part of God´s plan. In here we enter into a Theolgical discussion which I have no interest in taking part of.

[nepi]

ehrm.... of course I wanted to write Christian and not christ...

We are divided into countries out of fear since thousands of years and what we should do is to be united as a human race.

It is really a great idea, but for this it is unfortunately some 100 years too late. Some centuries ago, there was greed, unhealthy proud and selfishness which has changed the world authoritative. The roots of today lies so far away and there is less to do to change the world in a better place we all want. Maybe you think I am writing this with a great lazyness, but that's not true. For me, I know the places where I can escape from all these things I don't like and where I forget all the wars, poverty and so on...

Well, I'm drifting apart....
The bad thing of religion is, that everybody thinks, his religion is the best and the one and only, but to believe is a decision which makes everybody for himself and everybody chooses the best religion for him/her and not for someone. I decided this way, you your way.... I think, acceptance is a great word in this topic, but unfortunately it is written very small. I accept everyones religion and meaning about, but there are a lot of people who doesn't do that and defends their own religion with power and, even sadder, war... That's one of the most stupid thing mankind have ever seen – defend a religion with war....I am not sure (sorry for my ignorance) but I suppose also islam has nothing which hails war and destruction...

If they/all accept other religions, what would be?

[browneyedgirl]

Whether you realize it or not, you people who speak against Christanity are gulty of the same thing you accuse believers of: stereotyping&Judging without knowing!

The large portion of people who make up these Churches are some of the ost loving&caring people you would ever know. But, of couse, you problably never will know that fact because you have formed within yourself a mindset against the people who are members of these churches!

"Upon this Rock I shall build MY Church&the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it." Jesus spoke that in the year before his death.
Do any of you "Anti-Christians" know what these words mean, REALLY mean? Apparently not. Oh, when believers say what they believe in, they are arrogant, huh? But, when you Christian bashers judge&bash the Christian religion thats not arrogant? Cute.
Jesus created the Christian religion, NOT Constantine. After Jesus was killed, his disciples "took up the cross" and began the Christian ministry.

Oh, Timo, that little crack about wiping your butt on the Bible was NOT my idea. I think you know where it came from&I won't embarass you by posting the link. But, judging by your posts maybe it wouldn't embarass you.