Radical Islamic cleric issues fatwa against Paul McCartney

[miditek]

Islamic radicals threaten Paul McCartney

Islamic radicals have extended a preemptive fatwa, in the event the former Beatle goes through with a gig scheduled in Israel to commemorate the Jewish state's sixtieth birthday as a modern country.

"If he values his life, Mr. McCartney must not come to Israel," radical cleric Omar Bakri said. "He will not be safe there. The sacrifice operatives will be waiting for him."

The full story can be viewed at the following URL:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1020917.html

Religion of peace, indeed.

Barki does not need to be in the business of threatening anyone from the West- and for his unprovoked call to kill McCartney, he needs to be the target of a Shin Bet sniper's bullet himself.

[icecab21]

His view is not a religion of peace, but that does not mean that every interpretation of the book follows those collective punishment and violent ideas. Do we call every religion that has had offshoots of people in it that have committed bad deeds a religion of hate and violence? I guess at the most it could be said that there are peaceful people in a violent religion and vise versa. I think there is a point were individual responsibility comes in here as people form their own views in their head and twist things to say what they want them to say.

This whole thing has been going on for centuries and will always be a shitload of “he started it" from both sides that ends with the collective punishment of both sides instead of simply going after the responsible individuals.

[stratohawk]

Islamic terrorism is overrated.



And: Good post, icecab. There's no religion that is basically violent.

[Mormegil]

While I believe that Christians wouldn't be as peaceful as they are, if they were the second largest religion in the world, I'm stronly starting to believe this man knew what to do:

[Carcass]

Abu Ghraib prisoner abuses were not far from John Pershing's orders. Please tell me what was achieved by torturing and humiliating those prisoners.

[Shurik]

Tortures and humiliation won't do much - the ayatollahs or some other religious authority will just say that no matter how the martyr died, he will get to heaven if he did XYZ or killed so and so infidels ...

The only way to deal with terrorists is to deal with those who brainwash, finance and send them to action.

[stratohawk]

The major global problem is not terrorism (though undoubtedly in some regions it definitely is). But it's of highest interest of some groups/governments/influences to keep the picture of a worldwide threat alive.

[icecab21]

Part of the problem is the complete impasses that are made. Everything must be a "you first" or a “follow my rules or die”. There can be no trust and without trust there can be no solutions. Too many humans playing god by having their god play human.

[stratohawk]

While I believe that Christians wouldn't be as peaceful as they are, if they were the second largest religion in the world, I'm stronly starting to believe this man knew what to do:

The last sentences are not only stupid, but dangerous bullshit.

[Mormegil]

Yeah, sorry about that. Tasteless joke.

[icecab21]

not so sure about the accuractly of asying there have were not terrorist attacks anywhere in the world. jews and muslims seem to have been trading off attacks of terror ever since ww2.

http://www.rense.com/general21/pastzionist.htm

If this is true, than there has definitly been trade offs of terror.

[Carcass]

If this is true, than there has definitly been trade offs of terror.

It's true, those things happened. However, I don't know whether the majority of Jews would acknowledge that they were acts of terrorism. It's all depending on the angle.

One question that is raised in the Finnish media from time to time is that should Eugen Shauman be considered a terrorist or a nationalist hero? He shot the Russian Governor-General Bobrikov, who ruled over Finland with an iron fist back when Finland belonged to Russia.

Come to think of it, he shot himself in the heart after killing Bobrikov, does that make it a suicide attack?

[browneyedgirl]

@stratohawk, a question(you don't have to answer).
You are a pilot, right? What would you do, if in the middle of a flight, 6 fanatic and armed Muslims forcably took over your plane, and you knew these guys were going to take you and all the passengers down, to meet "your Maker"? How would you feel? What would be your thoughts?

[miditek]

Not a single word of concern for McCartney- in fact, not even another word even mentioned about him. Lots of sympathy for the mullahs though- typical old world Dhimmism.

Stratohawk doesn't have to worry about any armed jihadists- they won't hijack their own charters.

Now if Tolkki, rather than McCartney were threatened by the cleric- that would be an entirely different tale altogether. His "Legions of the Twilight" would unite and burn mosques to the ground from Gaza to Malmo. However, he is not enough of a household name to attract such attention.

[icecab21]

Now what ever happened to the American way of punishing those responsible for crimes and those that fund crimes? Where has going after religious symbols and collective punishment helped us all? How does killing their women and children help stop them from killing ours? When a woman gets raped, kill the rapist, not the baby or the victim, nor anyone of the rapist’s family that did not play a direct part.

[miditek]

Now what ever happened to the American way of punishing those responsible for crimes and those that fund crimes? Where has going after religious symbols and collective punishment helped us all? How does killing their women and children help stop them from killing ours? When a woman gets raped, kill the rapist, not the baby or the victim, nor anyone of the rapist’s family that did not play a direct part.

Typically liberal 'bait and switch' tactics- this is what I wrote-

Barki does not need to be in the business of threatening anyone from the West- and for his unprovoked call to kill McCartney, he needs to be the target of a Shin Bet sniper's bullet himself

Now where in that quote did I say 'hey, let's go carpet bomb Gaza or the West Bank' ?

No- I'm not calling for the wanton killing of civiilans (that's that job of your heroes in Hamas and Hezbollah's trademark)- I say completely (and literally) decapitate their leadership- let them know what fear is.

At one time, German troops were literally afraid to raise their heads during daylight hours, and would only move at night. It's way past time for our more modern enemies to see the sky black with drones, gunships, and jets- so many swarming that they wouldn't even dare make a call on their cell phones.

And given the U.S. military's night fighting capabilities, the darkness should be even more terrible than daylight. That's how you win a war- you make it utterly impossible for the enemy to even move, and moreover, make it even more impossible to survive if he does not.

If he hides in bordering regions, then hit them as well. Pakistan may have 50 nukes, but we have well over 20,000- many of which only (U.S. Pacific fleet subs) the White House knows the current location of. Do not give the enemy comfort or sanctuary- or you become our enemy very quickly.

Defend them all you want- I could care less. European style diplomacy led to the most two disastrous wars in history- and if appeasement/discussion/negotiations would not work with Germany, it most certainly won't work with these fanatics.

[icecab21]

Barki does not need to be in the business of threatening anyone from the West- and for his unprovoked call to kill McCartney, he needs to be the target of a Shin Bet sniper's bullet himself

That was the part I agreed with

His "Legions of the Twilight" would unite and burn mosques to the ground from Gaza to Malmo

That was the part that I did not agree with


Now in the USA history books that I read. World War 2 was caused by Europe’s lack of diplomacy and desire to punish the citizens. The desire of European countries to build empires and convert by force was another problem. Letting the Soviet Union survive after World War 2 was one of the biggest mistakes of mankind.


If I say that the USA cannot keep its respect if it uses the methods of Hamas and Hezbollah, how does that equate to me supporting them?

I’m just using the absurd example for you because you seem to be using absurd examples for me.

[miditek]

Now in the USA history books that I read. World War 2 was caused by Europe’s lack of diplomacy and desire to punish the citizens. The desire of European countries to build empires and convert by force was another problem. Letting the Soviet Union survive after World War 2 was one of the biggest mistakes of mankind.

There were many things that led to WWII-

- Treaty of Versailles humiliated Germany The US refused to sign it, and President Wilson prophetically declared that it was the declaration for the next war- which happened about 20 years later.

- Spineless western democracies- namely France and Britain allowed Hitler to rearm, and then watched him topple one country after the other. France could have taken Hitler many times, particularly when the bulk of his forces were tied down in Poland. Stalin could have done the same thing.

- Stalin pretended that the inevitable (war with Germany) was not coming, until it was already too late. He even expedited the delivery of supplies to Germany right up until the eve of Operation: Barbarossa

- As far as saying that we should have fought Russia at the end of WWII- that would have immediately led to WWIII- with still millions more dead. The cost to defeat Germany would have been significantly higher had it not been for the splendid resistance that the Russian army put up, which ultimately led to the ruin of Hitler's legions. We should give the Russians credit where it is due- especially seeing how 26 million of them were killed during the war- or about 1 of every 2 casualties for the entire conflict- ok?

And for those that wish to criticize Pershing- if it were not for him, you would not have needed to worry about Hitler- since the Kaiser would still be occupying large swaths of France- particularly Alsace and Lorraine. His units punished the Germans at Verdun.

Moreover, one of his proteges'- whom the Germans feared most of all, came back to inflict even greater damage later on in WWII- his name was Patton. You may have heard of him. Eisenhower had several hundred English speaking Germans that were captured wearing U.S. uniforms shot during the battles of the Ardennes and not one word of protest was said about that- but God forbid that Pershing should harm a single hair on the head of today's cause celibre'- a Muslim insurgent.

If I say that the USA cannot keep its respect if it uses the methods of Hamas and Hezbollah, how does that equate to me supporting them?

We're not using the same methods- we don't send our teenage daughters with bombs strapped on into the middle of a Sbarro's pizza parlor now, do we?

- Should we have humiliated prisoners at Gitmo or Abu Grahib? Hell no, they should have been shot on site!

[icecab21]

Russia helped in ways and did not help in other ways afterwards in ways such as spreading communism. The extreme authoritarians and collectivism of Hitler and Stalin are two great shows of science gone wrong and what happens when people don't stand up against tyrants and force desperate economic conditions.
Here is something that still is simple but it gives more of my view
Don’t negotiate with the non negotiable rouge nations and terrorists.
Do negotiate with those in the middle to make them allies and help them help both us and themselves. I don't think that's too far from McCain.
One problem I have with the bush camp is the use of giving private contracts that have less accountability. Paying more for security guards of generals than generals is crazy and that needs bipartisan action. I think that there needs to be reform in the way Washington does contracts since some of these deals don’t seems to put American’s interests first.
One main thing I have is that I think for what we work on with war we also need to work on with civilian help and relationship building. It can’t just be one or the other as all sides and areas need to be taken care of.

- Should we have humiliated prisoners at Gitmo or Abu Grahib? Hell no, they should have been shot on site!

I would give an exception of shot on site if there is cooperative surrender. We can then make sure that they are not released if they are a threat and work with them if they were being coerced and are willing to make changes. the troops could have used some better training in using more effective methods of
Getting reliable information than to take pictures of making fun of the guys and stacking them like gay orgies.

[stratohawk]

@stratohawk, a question(you don't have to answer).
You are a pilot, right? What would you do, if in the middle of a flight, 6 fanatic and armed Muslims forcably took over your plane, and you knew these guys were going to take you and all the passengers down, to meet "your Maker"? How would you feel? What would be your thoughts?

Your question is reasonable, and you are not the first one asking me this. But I tell you: The last thing what I'm afraid about during work is being hijacked by terrorists. The danger of dying in an accident is much higher. And this danger again is much smaller than the threat that I'm "going through" while driving my car to work. So eventually I don't worry about that. A few days ago I read that beyond Afghanistan and Iraq the number of people worlwide dying by terroristic attacks was smaller than the number of people in the US drowning in their bathtub. So what I'm denouncing is the disproportion of means that are taken by our governments (also our German government, like our famous Minister of the Interiour) to repel terroristic threats in contrast to the real threat.

I know we have different opinions about that, and my English is far too bad to discuss with you or Miditek on the same level. But well, that's my humble opinion.

Stratohawk doesn't have to worry about any armed jihadists- they won't hijack their own charters. Laughing

Eh? I don't get it....

Anyways. Where do I show "sympathy for the mullahs" in my post? Of course those people are delinquents that deserve punishment. But I don't get why you are frightened by what some stupid, stubborn, medieval prophet of the apocalypse announces. This is what this above mentioned disproportion caused. Everyone is afraid of something that's far away from being reality. Do you really think someone would/could kill McCartney? The influence of radical muslims (which definitely exist) is shrinking again. They have no answers for the real problems of the Arabian people, and most of those people are realizing that. They don't speak and don't act for a majority, but for a shrinking minority. In the retrospective they will remain footnote in history. A disgusting one, yes, but compared to what political leaders in the 20th century did or the new leaders of Russia, China etc. are capable to do, they are insignificant. And that's all I am saying: The world has different, more severe challenges than that.

[icecab21]

Well it seems the majorities and statistics get flipped around a lot. The minority of muslims that think in the fundamentalism way somehow is enough to call the whole thing a religion of hate and violence. It would also seem that any concern for the child that gets hurt by his father’s actions is an automatic support and love of the father ( if we go by a black and white system and say stuff like this just for amusement). When Israel shoots at people that just want to film or feed people and goes after the families of those that have made attacks, I think there are more options then a with us or against us. Perhaps someone could show that they don't support either side committing terror or using techniques that cause such collateral damage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lo1A5MEB ... re=related

Now with this there is an example of measurement differences between groups. One says they were over the limit and the other that they were under the limit. Since the Israel boat shot so that they did not kill any of the unarmed fishermen, do you think the Israel guys should have shot them on sight, communicated, left them along, or acted as they did? Is support of fisherman getting food a support of groups that would act in agression?

[miditek]

Eh? I don't get it....

Inside joke...sorry that it didn't translate very well, and it was a stupid thing for me to say anyhow, and I should apologize to you for that.

Anyways. Where do I show "sympathy for the mullahs" in my post?

I didn't mean you personally, I sort of meant that entire thread collectively.

Of course those people are delinquents that deserve punishment. But I don't get why you are frightened by what some stupid, stubborn, medieval prophet of the apocalypse announces.

I'm not frightened by some loud mouthed lunatic- it's the nuclear engineers and technicians from Russia partnering with Iran, and also given the fact that Pakistan already has nuclear weapons that makes people in the West uneasy.

Who would have thought that they would have the planning and logistical wherewithal to simultaneously hijack several jet airliners and use them as guided missiles? 9/11, in my opinion was a trial run for a much more ambitious operation.

It's just a matter of time before some of them detonate one, or more likely a sequence of nuclear devices inside of the U.S.- in fact I'm almost certain that their prime targets are Washington and Manhattan. Not enough to completely annihilate the country- but make no mistake about it- it will be devastating when it does happen. To underestimate what they believe and why they believe it is a very, very dangerous thing.

I don't share their beliefs, but from an academic and sociological angle, I completely understand their motives as well as the methodology of their madness.

From a strictly theological viewpoint, the mere existence of their tradtional enemy- Israel, is simply intolerable to them. Again, theologically speaking, the very presence of modren Israel in today's world fulfills not only Jewish, but also Christian biblical prophecies, that are thousands of years old, and does not make for a very strong again- theological arguement in support for the validity of Islam- and this is something that drives many of them insane with rage. They wonder why Allah allows "pigs and monkeys" such as the Jews to exist on their 'hallowed' ground, and the more they think about it, and given the fact that they cannot dislodge them- even after repeated attempts, then the crazier it makes them.

It does not matter that only a "small minority of them" are radicalized- (500,000 marching in the streets of Beirut in support of Hezbollah doesn't sound like a small minority to me, but then again, what do I know?)

This is what this above mentioned disproportion caused. Everyone is afraid of something that's far away from being reality.

I disagree, there are many countries that suffer from terrorism by Islamic radicals. Russia being one of many- such as the Moscow theater hostage situation. My first experience with it was watching the 1972 Olympics as a young child when the PLO splinter group Black September executed the Israeli athletes at Munich.

Even then- when I was only five years old, I knew that it was wrong, and that something terrible had just happened to some of God's chosen people. "How DARE they?", I asked my father, followed by many other questions about why it happened to them, but he preferred not to have a conversation about such horrible topics with his much too young child. Later on in life, I discovered that then Prime Minister Golda Meir had launched an operation to retaliate against those that were responsible, which at least brought a bit of relief to that nagging "why" that had tortured me for so many years.

Do you really think someone would/could kill McCartney?

Yes, I absolutely think that it's possible. One thing that you can say about Muslims, is that you can nearly always take them at their word in business, as well as when they make threats. Many of the old guard clerics probably still view him as a counterculture hippie that helped spread decadence, as opposed to the more somewhat more conservative billionaire grandfatherly type that he has become with age. The fact that he holds the title of KBE (Knight of the British Empire) probably does not help either.

Gotta run for now- more later.

P.S.- you're English is fine- I don't think anyone has any problems understanding you, and your points are well stated and clear.

[icecab21]

Why are the Jews gods chosen people and not us all? To me it's a sad thing when anyone becomes the victim of a victim. By that I mean that these people are victims of horrible ideology that leads to death and murder instead of that that creates life and a will to work and help others. People are victims of being caught in ideologies that won't let them enjoy life and love one another. Now part of our job is to make sure victims don't make victims out of others. To me that include civilian work of showing love as well as keeping a strong force against those that would initiate the breaking of the peace.

[stratohawk]

@Miditek:

Sometimes I wonder how media can have so much power and influence. Your opinion is probably as much influenced by your media as mine by ours. I have no illusions about that. What we believe being our own opinions is based on a wide basis that's created by what the media is showing as "truth" and "lie". The real truth might be somewhere in the middle. You have facts and arguments that might speak for a threat, for a larger attack than 9/11 was, and I from my side don't believe that, I rather think the opposite (history will prove one of us wrong), and this is of course based on things I read in essays, books, newspapers, watch in TV etc. I am always sceptical about "absolute things", about "undeniable facts" spread by some politician, institute or someone else. For example: Terrorism is not a threat by muslims, though our media melts both terms together and makes many people believe terrorism = Arab people. There is terrorism in India, Thailand, in the Basque Region, there was terrorism in Northern Ireland, and nothing of it has to do with muslims (or only partly). The situation in Russia that you mentioned is created by muslims, yes, but has a completely different background (Russian brutal suppression of the Chechen people). I question everything that is told us as simply good or bad, black and white. And well, that's probably an important reason why the Bush administration has got such a bad reputation worldwide: Because it is speaking and acting in absolutes.


(btw, thanks for honouring my English - but you cannot imagine how much longer it takes me to write such a post in contrast to writing it in German )

[Carcass]

you cannot imagine how much longer it takes me to write such a post in contrast to writing it in German )

Hehe I know what you mean, this is the main reason why I hardly ever write longer posts. But at the same time I have to say that trying to write pedantically is probably the best way of learning a language, at least for me.

[icecab21]

proverbs are fun

He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes; he who does not ask a question remains a fool forever.

War does not determine who is right, only who is left.

[Jabi]

No need to argue, it's the Bavarian Illuminati that controls everything. And as for the Bible, it teaches both election and predestination (as does Quran btw) so in the end of it we're just puppets on the string.

Nah, seriously, I'd like to think the future isn't set in stone but that there are many possible futures. Maybe on this timeline there will be a WW3 in the 2010s but it's still possible to make a change and jump on another timeline where the war won't happen?

[browneyedgirl]

Magic night for Macca and his mates
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/entertainment/7430581.stm

The concert was a smashing success! Over 16,000 goers! Wow! :headbang:

Prince Saladin is probably rolling over in his grave!

[Plisken]

miditek you cant generalize like that. How you write and make it sound is that Terrorism is is like the number one problem in the world and all muslims are planning to destroy the US one day. You do realize there are (last I checked) almost 2 million muslims living in the US. Do you believe they will do anything to rune the country they live in? The religion doesnt say to hate or attack or kill anyone else they attake you first. Your making these Minority groups like Hamas and Hezbollah who have lets say a max of 1 million(and thats really pushing it) supporters. There are 1.200 Billion muslims in the world. You honestly they there groups are the voice of those 1.200 billion? Do you really believe that 1.200 believe people hate you, the U.S and everything it stands for? They are just Minority groups that play there cards well to get the position they are in to get the supporters. They did exactly what the Yakuza did in japan. They help the people out in times of need with money, food, supplies,etc so they can gain there favor. For the Yakuza there opportunity was after the big earthquake in japan, they were able to help all the effected area's out before the government did anything. Hamas helped out the Palestinian people when they had no money, could get no food because of the sanctions the UN put up and the heavy restrictions Israel put up.

In essence Hamas wouldn't have gotten popular and gain supporters if these to factors weren't there. There would have been no way they could gain supporters. Same with Hezbollah, they did the exactly the same thing in Lebanon. Almost no one outside of Palestine support Hamas and Hezbollah outside of Lebanon. They are locale groups. In hamas's case its a bit different since they got hold most of the government but in Palestinians case all the politicians there today are terrible, It really wont make much of a difference on who and power. Israel have pretty good politicians that are good are good things in side Israel but public relations, just like Palestine ant very good. In the end Palestinians want to be able to live where they were born and raised and Israel wants to live in peace by them self's. You can change the "head" multiple times on both sides but that wont change what the people believe in. Whats the solution to the problem? There really isnt one, ether way one side is going to get the raw end to the deal.

Miditek im sure you mean well, you just want your country to be safe from these threats out there and all proof of that is you here talking about it and trying to do something. But some of your facts are just wrong, or at least thats how I procived them from what you have written. I think your views on how to deal with problems is a bit too much but all in good will I think. I just hope you read this carefully and thought about it, hell maybe even researched on the facts Iv written and see them for yourself. Then if you want you can post on how wrong I am or If I have any good points.

oh and sorry for making this long >.>

[browneyedgirl]

Most Christians are very peaceful people, but that did not stop Timothy McVeigh or Terry Nichols(both Christians)from blowing up the Murrah Building in OKC&killing over 250 innocent people.
The point is, a majority of a group may be peaceful but that does not diminish the horror that a minority of a group can inflict on others.


@Plisken, its your country, too, because I saw a post where you said you live in California.
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