At last..IDF finally responds

Talk about everything else besides Stratovarius here in English. Please try to put more serious topics here, and silly topics in the Spam section.

Who will win the election for PM of Israel?

Tvipi Livni (Kadima party- centrist)
2
18%
Benyamin 'Bibi' Netanyahu (Likud party- right of center)
8
73%
Labour party (left of center) candidate- yeah, when pigs fly!
1
9%
 
Total votes: 11

User avatar
Shurik
Sr. Member
Posts:3774
Joined:Mon Mar 04, 2002 12:17 am
Location:Satellite Of Love
Contact:
Re: At last..IDF finally responds

Post by Shurik » Fri Jan 16, 2009 10:38 am

Of course the UN hates Israel, even though it was a UN resolution which resulted in its creation... anyhow.
I've read a statistic somewhere whuch says that more anti-Israeli resolutions were passed in the UN that anti-anything else. Including the famous "Zionism is racism" resolution. Including blaming Israel for self-defense, numerous times. UN gave stage to Yaser Arafat in 1970s (when he was still an openly bloody terrorist). UN also gave stage to the insane ramblings of Mahmud Hitlerojad. So, when will UN give stage to Osama Bin-Laden or Hassan Nasrallah or Haled Mashal? Your bets, please.

The times were quite different when UN passed the resolution that created the state of Israel. BTW, everyone seems to forget that the very same resolution also created an Arab state here, but our neighbors probably thought it was a really bad idea and didn't took the very generous offer.
Chemistry is physics without a thought
Mathematics is physics without a purpose

User avatar
Bathory Killcraft
Member
Posts:290
Joined:Thu Apr 11, 2002 4:56 pm

Re: At last..IDF finally responds

Post by Bathory Killcraft » Fri Jan 16, 2009 1:46 pm

browneyedgirl wrote:The point is, Jews simply wanted to return to their point of origin and were attacked for it.
What kind of arguement is this? I have Greek ancestory, I simply want to return to my point of origin which is Constantinople (today's Istanbul), Asia Minor, Southern Italy(Magna Graecia), Marseille, etc but I am attacked for this.
browneyedgirl wrote:One prophecy that I will point out is the prophecy of Zechariah who states that in the latter days the whole world will be drunk with the hatred toward Jews and Israel. And, that these countries would do everything to destroy Israel(Judah). Sound familiar?
I am sure Buddhism has a very different opinion about this. What the Bible says or says not is irrelevant to the people who don't believe in it who is I understand, the majority in this planet.
Shurik wrote:BTW, everyone seems to forget that the very same resolution also created an Arab state here, but our neighbors probably thought it was a really bad idea and didn't took the very generous offer.
I would hardly consider partitioning my land out of nowhere a very generous offer. It was very generous, but not for them.

Of course, generosity like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.
Black Metal is the game I play cos' no one shows me the right way...

User avatar
browneyedgirl
Sr. Member
Posts:27239
Joined:Thu Aug 29, 2002 6:00 pm
Location:Starfall
Contact:

Re: At last..IDF finally responds

Post by browneyedgirl » Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:43 pm

browneyedgirl wrote:One prophecy that I will point out is the prophecy of Zechariah who states that in the latter days the whole world will be drunk with the hatred toward Jews and Israel. And, that these countries would do everything to destroy Israel(Judah). Sound familiar?
I am sure Buddhism has a very different opinion about this. What the Bible says or says not is irrelevant to the people who don't believe in it who is I understand, the majority in this planet.
What seems "irrelevant" is not important, but REALITY IS important. Just because people do not believe something does not mean its not true.

Israel's aim is to weaken Hamas, and to stop their arms smuggling into Gaza. In 6 months the Hamas weapons advanced from rockets that ranged 20 miles, to the recent ones that ranged 50 miles---reaching further into Israel and endangering the lives of 2 million Israelis. The more recent rockets are more profesionally made which lead weapon experts to seriously think the rockets are being smuggled in somehow from Iran.

User avatar
NeonVomit
Sr. Member
Posts:4628
Joined:Thu Feb 20, 2003 5:36 pm
Location:London, UK

Re: At last..IDF finally responds

Post by NeonVomit » Fri Jan 16, 2009 5:44 pm

browneyedgirl wrote:
NeonVomit wrote:
browneyedgirl wrote:There are 1.4 million Palestinians. Right? Well, why don't the people and countries that are defending them so strongly(UK, Venuzuela, Brazil, France, Canada, etc. etc.) take the Palestinians into their country and give them sanctuary? Protect them if they love them so much. Put their money where their mouths and protests are. Faith without works is dead.
Maybe Madonna, Rosie, Tom, Angelina, etc., can adopt some of these needy homeless kids from Gaza. God knows the children do need that kind of love and care after living around Hamas terrorists and being subjected to war.
Instead of protesting&throwing hissy fits, people need to put their faith into action.
Um, because the Palestinians were there before Israel was formed?
Are you sure about that? Maybe Israel the country, but the peoples themselves(Jews)were there centuries before Islam was even made up or Muslims took residence there.
Jews lived there until the Romans ran them all out under the penalty of death in 135 AD.Afterward, the Jews were persecuted and expelled from every country they tried to reside in. Islam took Judah about 638AD and ruled the area except during a short period during the Crusades.
Toward 1917 Jews started returning to their homeland. This was after the defeat of the last Ottoman Turks. more and more Jews returned to Jerusalem, and their lives began to flourish, and thrive. This really pissed the arabs off who lived there and in surrounding countries. Clashes began to develop
between the arabs and Jews, so the 1947-UN resolution was created dividing the land up betwen arabs and the Jews. This solution pissed the arabs off even more, and immediately the Jews were attacked by every surrounding country.

The point is, Jews simply wanted to return to their point of origin and were attacked for it.

I could touch upon the Kings of the North&Kings of the South and how that fits it, but miditek is the Bible history scholar here, so I will let him explain the relavance of Biblical history and its prophecy if he chooses. :)

One prophecy that I will point out is the prophecy of Zechariah who states that in the latter days the whole world will be drunk with the hatred toward Jews and Israel. And, that these countries would do everything to destroy Israel(Judah).
Sound familiar?

Please, don't tell me about homelands.

Ever heard of a place called Istanbul? Read a bit of the history of that place. Sure, you get a few fringe crazies who demand it be returned to Greece, as well as most of the western coast of Turkey, but most people accept what's done is done and moved on.

If Greeks wanted to return to their 'point of origin', trust me there would be very little international support.

And again, I give the Bible about as much weight as Homer's epics or Virgil's works when it comes to realities of the world. Good stories, really not meant to be taken literally or indeed overly seriously. So quoting the bible or koran or whatever and expecting me to take it as some sort of justification for actions taken today is a bit far fetched.
"Beneath the freezing sky arrives Winter's Verge..."

http://www.wintersverge.com


I'm going to hell, and loving the ride!

User avatar
NeonVomit
Sr. Member
Posts:4628
Joined:Thu Feb 20, 2003 5:36 pm
Location:London, UK

Re: At last..IDF finally responds

Post by NeonVomit » Fri Jan 16, 2009 5:47 pm

browneyedgirl wrote: What seems "irrelevant" is not important, but REALITY IS important. Just because people do not believe something does not mean its not true.
I don't believe the earth is flat. In fact, not many people do. There is no evidence for this.

Does this mean that it still may be true?
"Beneath the freezing sky arrives Winter's Verge..."

http://www.wintersverge.com


I'm going to hell, and loving the ride!

User avatar
Carcass
Sr. Member
Posts:1186
Joined:Sat Sep 23, 2006 10:41 am
Location:Finland

Re: At last..IDF finally responds

Post by Carcass » Fri Jan 16, 2009 7:39 pm

NeonVomit wrote:Ever heard of a place called Istanbul?
Or Karjala? As bitter as the loss was, people have moved on.

Countless nations have similar stories to tell, but living in the past is helping nobody. Shurik is right, who were on a piece of land first is irreleventa. This is no argument for or against either party. Palestinians can claim that they have lived in the region as long as Jews. The current situation is that both Jews and Palestinians are living on the same patch of land, and they better come to terms with it. For their own sake.

Moreover, I'm not convinced that drawing straight lines from ancient times to present day is reasonable.

User avatar
browneyedgirl
Sr. Member
Posts:27239
Joined:Thu Aug 29, 2002 6:00 pm
Location:Starfall
Contact:

Re: At last..IDF finally responds

Post by browneyedgirl » Fri Jan 16, 2009 8:26 pm

NeonVomit wrote:
browneyedgirl wrote: What seems "irrelevant" is not important, but REALITY IS important. Just because people do not believe something does not mean its not true.
I don't believe the earth is flat. In fact, not many people do. There is no evidence for this.

Does this mean that it still may be true?
The point is, just because you, I, or anyone does not believe something does not mean its not true. Who said anything about the belief that the earth is flat, I was referring to religious matters. Time will tell if the prophecies or writings in the Bible are true---I happen to believe they are true, so does miditek and billions of other folks. Its our right to believe it if we want, its called faith and seeing the truth for itself, in action. And, you or anyone else has the right to reject it(the Bible and its teachings) if you choose. Its called freedom of choice and AFAIK that choice still exists. As for what is going on in Gaza, we can hope for peace and there will be times of peace between these peoples, but it won't last. Its destiny. And, it was foretold in the scriptures. I'm sorry if you cannot or, will not understand this. But, you will in time. We all will. :)

User avatar
Shurik
Sr. Member
Posts:3774
Joined:Mon Mar 04, 2002 12:17 am
Location:Satellite Of Love
Contact:

Re: At last..IDF finally responds

Post by Shurik » Fri Jan 16, 2009 8:45 pm

I would hardly consider partitioning my land out of nowhere a very generous offer. It was very generous, but not for them.
Ok, so tell me, when did the Arab population of this piece of land had a sovereign state named Palestine?

History lesson number 458127465187:
The last truly sovereign state within the current borders of Israel (more or less) that lasted more than a few years was a Hasmonean kingdom which was a result of a Maccabean rebellion against the Greeks in 165BC. Then Romans conquered it, than there was a Jewish revolt of 66-73 AD which resulted in burning of the second temple, than there were couple more revolts, than Byzantines got this land, then it fell to Sassanids (pre-islamic Iran), then to muslim Arabs during the initial islamic conquests, then crusaders, then muslims again, then there was a British mandate and then came the UN resolution which created 2 states - a Jewish one and an Arab one. Jews took the UN offer, Arabs didn't, and that's really not our problem.

So, who's land it is doesn't really matter because everyone who conquered it in something like past 3000 years can claim the ownership. What matters is the will of the people here to live in peace with each other.
Chemistry is physics without a thought
Mathematics is physics without a purpose

User avatar
Carcass
Sr. Member
Posts:1186
Joined:Sat Sep 23, 2006 10:41 am
Location:Finland

Re: At last..IDF finally responds

Post by Carcass » Fri Jan 16, 2009 9:38 pm

Image

User avatar
Bathory Killcraft
Member
Posts:290
Joined:Thu Apr 11, 2002 4:56 pm

Re: At last..IDF finally responds

Post by Bathory Killcraft » Fri Jan 16, 2009 11:45 pm

I think the homeland or point of origin issue is pretty much covered. Borders change, populations are exchanged, you have to live with it and move on as history unfolds. Its unrealistic to claim a land as rightfully yours just because you have lived there in the past. In that sense Hebrews were given a land they did not acquire after a war - I am talking about the 1948 borders. It was instead given to them as a result of their persecution in WWII.

Obviously by the same token Israel can claim that what's done is done, there is a state of Israel for almost 60 years now and that's something that has to be accepted by everyone in the area whether they like it or not. I am in total agreement with that.

Shurik, do I have to remind you I don't take history lessons from you or anyone else for that matter, etc etc...? No? Good. FIY I don't believe in a palestinian identity or ethnicity and whatnot. They are more likely Transjordan arabs(as miditek mentioned earlier) not descendands of the phoenician or the philistine people as they claim and there wasn't an official palestinian state either. But they were there. And they made room for you to (OK, re-)settle by third party intervention. It wasn't a bilateral arrangement.
browneyedgirl wrote:What seems "irrelevant" is not important, but REALITY IS important. Just because people do not believe something does not mean its not true.
OK, I usually completely disagree with most of Tolkki's opinions but one thing I found myself in agreement is when he was saying everyone have their own truth. Own realities too. So don't try to force feed us that what's in the bible is the reality. It's the reality for those who believe in it. Trying to say otherwise is called preaching and it's a very dangerous thing to do.
browneyedgirl wrote:Israel's aim is to weaken Hamas, and to stop their arms smuggling into Gaza. In 6 months the Hamas weapons advanced from rockets that ranged 20 miles, to the recent ones that ranged 50 miles---reaching further into Israel and endangering the lives of 2 million Israelis. The more recent rockets are more profesionally made which lead weapon experts to seriously think the rockets are being smuggled in somehow from Iran.
Looks like weapons are indeed being smuggled in from the borders with Egypt. But Iran? Seems that the west is so anti-iranian as the east is anti-semitic these days. Axis of evil and all. Do I have to remind you Iran is the only country in the world the US sold its F-14 fighter aircraft to? Please don't bring up evidence from the CIA or IDF to support your case, the WMD farce in Iraq is still too recent in memory.

Another thing, irrelevant. I don't think any Western democracy recognises Hamas in Gaza. They are only willing to work with Abbas in the west bank.
I know you keep saying how palestinians brought that to themselves since they voted for a terrorist organisation (which Hamas indeed is) but what did you realistically expect to happen in the slum that Gaza is today?

By the way I read Israel uses weapons containing white phosphorus or some shit like that, which is prohibited. Is that true?
Black Metal is the game I play cos' no one shows me the right way...

User avatar
miditek
Sr. Member
Posts:2045
Joined:Thu Feb 02, 2006 4:59 am

Re: At last..IDF finally responds

Post by miditek » Sat Jan 17, 2009 3:29 am

Israel, Islam, and Armageddon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsOV7wZ8kVo

The eyes of the world are upon Jerusalem, just as the biblical prophets had foretold thousands of years ago.

This conflict will consume the entire world.
Κύριε ἐλέησον

User avatar
browneyedgirl
Sr. Member
Posts:27239
Joined:Thu Aug 29, 2002 6:00 pm
Location:Starfall
Contact:

Re: At last..IDF finally responds

Post by browneyedgirl » Sat Jan 17, 2009 3:56 am

@miditek, when people see it, they will finally believe it. :)




   
 



Myths & Facts about the Gaza War
http://www.aish.com/jewishissues/middle ... za_War.asp
This article will debunk the following 10 myths:
1. Israel broke the cease-fire with Hamas.
2. Israel has responded to Hamas rocket fire with "disproportionate force." 
3. Palestinians in Gaza are innocent victims. 
4. Israel's operation in Gaza will only embitter Palestinians and make them seek revenge rather than peace. 
5. Israel should negotiate a cease-fire with Hamas. 
6. Hamas targets military objectives. 
7. Hamas fears Israel's military might. 
8. At the end of this war, Israel will have to negotiate with Hamas. 
9. Israel deliberately attacked a UN school. 
10. Media coverage of the Gaza war is fair and accurate.
1. MYTH: Israel broke the cease-fire with Hamas.
FACT
On June 17, 2008, after several months of indirect contacts between Israel and Hamas through Egyptian mediators, Hamas agreed to a cease-fire (tahadiya). Almost immediately afterward, terrorists fired rockets into southern Israel. Despite what it called a "gross violation" of the truce, Israel refrained from military action. In fact, during the six months the arrangement was supposed to be observed, 329 rockets and mortar shells were fired at Israel.
While there were considerably fewer Palestinian assaults after the agreement than before, terror continued. Nevertheless, the IDF did not respond to the provocations. On the contrary, Israel significantly increased the amount of goods delivered to the Gaza Strip.
During this period, Israel also expected to negotiate the release of Gilad Shalit, the Israeli soldier taken hostage by Hamas in June 2006. The group repeatedly increased its demands for the number of prisoners it wanted released in exchange for the lone Israeli captive, but never agreed to grant his freedom.
Violence escalated in early November after the IDF carried out a military operation close to the border security fence on the Gazan side that killed seven Hamas terrorists. Israel acted after discovering that Hamas had dug a tunnel under the fence and planned to abduct more Israeli soldiers. Hamas responded by shelling Israeli towns and has continued the rocket barrage ever since.
When the Hamas-imposed six-month deadline expired in December, Israel hoped an agreement could be reached to extend the cease-fire. Instead, Hamas began firing what would be hundreds of rockets into Israel. 
When the bombardment began, it became apparent Hamas had used the lull to upgrade its arsenal with weapons that were too sophisticated to have been designed or built in Gaza. These advanced Qassam and Grad rockets, which have placed 1-in-every-8 Israelis in mortal danger, originated in Iran. They were smuggled into Gaza in pieces, assembled, and fired from launch pads well-hidden and shielded in Palestinian population centers.
Once launched, hundreds of thousands of Israelis have as little as 15 seconds to reach a bunker before a rocket detonates. Hamas has turned all of southern Israel into a place that more resembles a post-apocalyptic world, rather than a modern, civilized society. Imagine never being able to step outside without remaining in sprinting distance of a concrete bunker. Imagine having to dive into the safety of a bunker 30 times a day, every day. Try to imagine the terror of the rocket whistling down, not knowing whether it will land a mile a way, or directly above your head. 
Can you imagine the sudden shock when you feel the impact, the relief that overcomes you that you are still alive, and the immediate sorrow and concern that follows when you realize that others like -- your family and friends -- may not have been so lucky this time? 
2. MYTH: Israel has responded to Hamas rocket fire with "disproportionate force."
FACT
Article 51 of the United Nations Charter reserves to every nation the right to engage in self-defense against armed attacks. As Professor Alan Dershowitz has also noted, "The claim that Israel has violated the principle of proportionality -- by killing more Hamas terrorists than the number of Israeli civilians killed by Hamas rockets -- is absurd. First, there is no legal equivalence between the deliberate killing of innocent civilians and the deliberate killings of Hamas combatants. Under the laws of war, any number of combatants can be killed to prevent the killing of even one innocent civilian. Second, proportionality is not measured by the number of civilians actually killed, but rather by the risk posed. This is illustrated by what happened on Tuesday (December 30, 2008), when a Hamas rocket hit a kindergarten in Beer Sheva, though no students were there at the time. Under international law, Israel is not required to ! allow Hamas to play Russian roulette with its children's lives."
As the London Times said in response to this charge during Israel's war with Hezbollah, this criticism "is lazy and facile in several ways, especially in implying a moral relativism between the two sides that does not exist. This is not the contest between misguided equals that many in the West seem to see. One is the region's lone democracy, which for much of its existence has faced a very real existential threat and would like, if possible, to live in peace with its neighbors. The other is a terrorist organization, bent on preventing such a future."
Furthermore, Since Hamas' stated objective is the destruction of Israel, isn't the appropriate response the destruction of Hamas? Wouldn't random missile strikes on Palestinian cities be proportionate to Hamas rocket attacks on southern Israel? Can you imagine any of Israel's critics accepting those responses?
When Palestinian terrorists plant bombs at Israeli shopping malls and kill and maims dozens of civilians, would the "proportionate response" be for Israelis to plant bombs in Palestinian malls? No one in Israel believes this would be a legitimate use of force. Thus, Israel is left with the need to take measured action against specific targets in an effort to either deter Palestinian violence or stop it.
What would America do if terrorists fired thousands of rockets targeting U.S. cities? After 9/11, we saw that America took the same type of action as Israel by launching military strikes against the terrorists. U.S. forces used overwhelming force and though they never targeted civilians, some were inadvertently killed. Americans believe in Colin Powell's doctrine, which holds that "America should enter fights with every bit of force available, or not at all."
The United States uses overwhelming force against its enemies, even though the threats are distant and pose no danger to the existence of the nation or the immediate security of its citizens. The threat Israel faces is immediate in time and physical proximity, and poses a direct danger to Israeli citizens. More than 6,000 rockets have now fallen on Israel's cities and now that Hamas has acquired long-range missiles, more than 900,000 civilians are in danger. Still, Israel has not used its full might as the Powell Doctrine dictates. The use of force has been judicious and precise.
Israeli soldiers do not deliberately target noncombatants. The murder of innocents is the goal of the Palestinian terrorists. In fact, what other army drops leaflets to warn people to leave an area they intend to attack even though it gives up the element of surprise and allows the bad guys to hide as well as the innocent to escape?
IDF activities are governed by an overriding policy of restraint and a determination to take all possible measures to prevent harm to innocent civilians.
No innocent Palestinians would be in any danger if the Palestinian Authority took steps to stop terrorism or if the international community, especially the Arab world, had pressured Hamas to stop attacking Israel. 
No innocent Palestinians would be in danger if Hamas terrorists did not deliberately hide among them. If the peace-seeking Palestinians prevented the terrorists from living in their midst, Israel would have no reason to come to their neighborhoods.
It is a tragedy whenever innocent lives are lost, and Israelis have consistently expressed their sadness over Arab casualties. By contrast, when innocent Israelis are murdered by terrorists, Hamas holds rallies to celebrate the murders. 
3. MYTH: Palestinians in Gaza are innocent victims.
FACT
It is tragic that many Palestinians who are not directly involved in terrorism are suffering as a result of the actions of their leaders. While no one wants to see any noncombatants harmed, it is important to acknowledge that all Palestinians in Gaza bear some responsibility for their current predicament. After all, they voted to empower Hamas in an election in which they knew the organization's platform called for the destruction of Israel and the use of terrorism to achieve its aims. 
The Palestinians in Gaza have done nothing during the last three years to stop Hamas from launching rockets into Israel. At any time the people could have said, "Enough! We do not support terror." Instead of allowing rocket crews to fire Qassams from their houses, yards, or neighborhoods, the people could have said, "Stop! I will not allow you to make us a target. I will now allow you to use my family as a shield." 
For the last three years, the Palestinians of Gaza have said, in effect, "We don't mind if Israelis are murdered by Hamas rockets, but the world should support us."
During World War II, the German people were not spared suffering from the Allied invasion because they were noncombatants or because some could claim they were not Nazis and did not support Hitler. All the German people were held to account for their failure to stop their leaders from carrying out their aggression and genocidal policies. 
The Palestinians now are also being held to account. What is different, however, is that unlike the Allies in World War II, Israel is doing everything possible to avoid hurting Palestinian noncombatants despite their culpability. Even now the Palestinians have the power to stop the war by demanding that Hamas cease firing rockets. Alas, they refuse to take the one step within their power to ease their suffering. 
4. MYTH: Israel's operation in Gaza will only embitter Palestinians and make them seek revenge rather than peace.
FACT
After the Blitz in World War II, the British did not worry whether Germans would hate them for bombing their cities. In fact, unlike Israel, the allies had little concern during the war for inflicting suffering on German civilians. Undoubtedly, many Germans still harbor anger toward the British and other allies for their actions during the war, but this did not prevent Germany from ultimately coming to terms with its neighbors and becoming a peaceful member of the international community.
It is not Israeli actions that provoke Palestinians to choose terror over peace, it is the indoctrination of Hamas, which teaches children from an early age to hate Jews, to seek the destruction of Israel and to glorify martyrdom. 
5. MYTH: Israel should negotiate a cease-fire with Hamas.
FACT
Hamas does not negotiate with Israel. Hamas denies Israel's right to exist. Hamas refuses to abide by previously signed agreements. Even the recently-expired six-month "cease-fire" between Israel and Hamas had to be slowly and painstakingly negotiated through Egypt because Hamas would not talk to Israel.
Throughout 2008, Israel worked with the United States toward an equitable two-state solution with the Palestinian Authority while Hamas did everything in its power to disrupt and derail the peace process -- firing thousands of rockets into Israeli towns and cities, firing on Israeli soldiers and civilians, and attempting to infiltrate Israel for the purpose of committing suicide bombing attacks. Hamas also continues to hold 22-year-old Gilad Shalit, the Israeli soldier they kidnapped in June 2006.
Hamas made clear that the "cease-fire" was not a prelude to peace. On the contrary, Hamas used the time to build more tunnels to smuggle weapons and supplies from Egypt; to build more rockets and to improve the range and accuracy of its existing arsenal. A new cease-fire before the tunnels and weapons are destroyed or neutralized would simply give Hamas the opportunity to follow the example of Hezbollah and rearm and regroup for a future battle to achieve its goal of Israel's destruction. 
6. MYTH: Hamas targets military objectives.
FACT
Hamas consistently judges the success of their attacks by the number of Israelis they kill -- men, women, children. Hamas does not even try to attack military targets; their rockets are directed toward towns, cities and farms rather than military bases. The group's rockets land on playgrounds, apartment buildings, public parks, schools and private homes.
Hamas terrorists choose not to expose themselves by firing these weapons from open areas. They construct launch pads in densely populated regions in Gaza, using the local Palestinian population as a shield because they do not care if their fellow Palestinians are killed by their own misfiring rockets (as frequently occurs) or by retaliatory strikes by Israel. The leaders of Hamas, like their ideological soul mates in Hezbollah, actually prefer that Israel hits back because they know that if civilians inadvertently are casualties, the international community will blame the Israelis. 
7. MYTH: Hamas fears Israel's military might.
FACT
Hamas terrorists believe they are fighting a holy war against infidels and that is why no diplomatic agreement with them is possible. It is their religious conviction that they must create an Islamic state and that there is no place in the Islamic world for a Jewish state (or a Christian one for that matter). 
Because of their faith, Hamas foot soldiers believe Allah will welcome them to Paradise if they are killed by Israel in what they see as their defense of Islam. The Hamas terrorists' extremism goes much further. It would be one thing if they were willing to sacrifice their own lives for their beliefs, but they also are prepared to jeopardize the lives of others as well. That is why they have no reticence about using their fellow Palestinians as shields. If Israel is dissuaded from attacking for fear of killing innocents, Hamas can continue to terrorize Israelis with impunity. If Israel does attack, Hamas will use the death of any noncombatants for propaganda purposes and to rally support. 
At the first sign of danger, the leaders of Hamas typically run and hide. Their bravery extends to sending young disciples to become martyrs and using the rest of the population to protect themselves. 
8. MYTH: At the end of this war, Israel will have to negotiate with Hamas.
FACT
Some analysts suggest that Israel cannot destroy Hamas or provoke regime change in Gaza and, therefore, Israelis will have to negotiate in the end with Hamas, making this war a pointless exercise in destruction. 
Hamas has not hidden its objective of destroying Israel. It has conducted a three-year terror war since Israel's evacuation of Gaza, which followed the five-year Palestinian Intifada that claimed more than 1,000 Israeli lives. No country would show the degree of restraint that Israel exhibited as its cities were rocketed. 
The purpose of the Israeli operation is to reduce the possibility of Hamas threatening Israeli lives to as close to zero as possible. No one should expect that the outcome of the war will be a desire on the part of either side to negotiate with the other. Article 13 of the Hamas covenant makes clear the group's raison d'etre: "There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors" (Article 13). 
For Israel, the notion of negotiating with Hamas was best summed up by Golda Meir when she said, "They say we must be dead. And we say we want to be alive. Between life and death, I don't know of a compromise." 
9. MYTH: Israel deliberately attacked a UN school.
FACT
They say that truth is the first casualty of war and Israel has frequently found this to be the case. Reports of Israeli atrocities in its military operations are often out of context, misleading, half-truths, or outright fabrications. Israel often reinforces negative media reports by reacting in a knee-jerk way to accept blame when asked for a reaction to allegations. The media does not wait to learn the truth because that typically requires careful, dispassionate analysis that does not conform to journalists' need to immediately fill time and space.
The best example of this was the infamous case that occurred during an Israeli anti-terror operation in Gaza in 2000 when a TV broadcast showed a Palestinian father shielding his son from bullets. The child was allegedly killed and Israel was immediately blamed. It took many months, but we now know Israeli troops did not kill Mohammed al-Dura.
Israel faced a similar rush to judgment after reports of an Israeli attack on January 6, 2009 on a UN-run school in Jabalya. The building was not being used as a school at the time but was sheltering Palestinian noncombatants. Initial reports said at least 30 Palestinians were killed and UN officials claimed they had given Israeli forces coordinates of this building and others that they said were not associated with Hamas. The incident was immediately portrayed as a deliberate Israeli attack on innocent people.
The details of what happened are still under investigation, but Israel maintains it was not aware that the building was being used as a shelter and that Israeli forces fired at the building because they were attacked by Hamas terrorists launching mortars from the area. Israel later identified two of the casualties at the site as Imad and Hassan Abu Asker, who served as heads of the Hamas mortar units in Gaza. A witness from Jabalya said that he had seen Abu Asker in the area of the school right before the attack when he answered a call for volunteers to pile sand around the camp "to help protect the resistance fighters." In addition, two residents of the area near the school told the Associated Press they had seen a small group of terrorists firing mortar rounds from a street close to the school. A series of explosions followed, indicating the presence of munitions and explosives in the building, which was not being u! sed as a school at the time. 
This is not the first time terrorists have fired mortars from a school in Gaza, nor is it the first time terrorists have exploited UN facilities. UN officials in Gaza, who never condemn Palestinian terror (the UN never passed a resolution condemning Hamas terrorism), have a long record of looking the other way while Hamas carries out its activities. UN officials in Gaza are there to help Palestinians and their bias often clouds their judgment and therefore independent verification is needed before accepting their claims.
We do know that through its use of civilians as shields, Hamas has brought death and destruction to the people of Gaza as well as southern Israel. The loss of life in Jabalya is tragic and would not have happened if Hamas was not rocketing Israel. The rush to blame Israel is also a reminder that first reports out of Gaza cannot be trusted. 
10. MYTH: Media coverage of the Gaza war is fair and accurate.
FACT
Israel has learned that its enemies will do everything they can to manipulate the media to influence public opinion during conflicts such as the one going on in the Gaza Strip. Israel will be accused of massacres, fabricated casualty figures will be distributed, photographs will be doctored and journalists will be threatened. These and other ploys will be used to create sympathy for the Palestinians and cast aspersions on Israeli forces in the hope of turning world opinion against Israel. 
Too often, irresponsible journalists have repeated unverified and often inaccurate information in their haste to be the first to report a story. In an effort to present an evenhanded account, some reporters have the mistaken belief that allowing an Arab spokesperson to lie and then giving an Israeli a chance to respond represents a balanced account. This is like allowing a spokesperson to accuse Israelis of beating their spouses and then inviting an Israeli to deny that they beat their husbands and wives. Israel is always put on the defensive, often through outrageous and false accusations, which are repeated by other media so lies become accepted as truth.
One of the first examples of this in the Gaza war occurred after Israeli forces fired on a UN-run school on January 6, 2009. The press immediately reported that more than 30 Palestinians seeking shelter in the building were killed and the attack was portrayed as a deliberate assault on innocent people. Hours later, Israeli investigators reported that they had fired on the building because they were attacked by Hamas terrorists launching mortars from the area. Witnesses supported the Israeli account, but the initial impression was already created and reinforced by repeated claims by UN officials discounting the Israeli version.
Israel was consistently victimized by Arab propaganda and media irresponsibility during the 2006 Lebanon War. Israel was accused of massacres that never happened. Reuters was duped by doctored photos and had to withdraw them. Other photos, showing Hizballah fighters setting up rockets in civilian neighborhoods were suppressed because they did not conform to Hizballah's propaganda message that Israel was indiscriminately attacking innocent Lebanese. 
Hamas has adopted a similar approach. As CNN's Anderson Cooper reported, "Inside Gaza, press controlled by Hamas is heavy-handed. There are few press freedoms inside Gaza and Hamas controls who reports from there and where they can go. While pictures of wounded children being brought to hospitals are clearly encouraged, we rarely see images of Hamas fighters or their rockets being fired into Israel."
Israel naturally wants to shape media coverage as well, but Israelis know the first time they are caught telling the type of lies common to the other side their credibility will be shot. Moreover, while they may want to exert some influence by, for example, limiting reporters' access to troops, the other side still succeeds in making its case. As CNN's Nic Robertson noted in criticizing Israel's decision not to embed reporters during the Gaza operation, "The officials we talk to say it's for security and our safety, but it creates an impression that they don't want the suffering that's happening in the Gaza Strip right now to be witnessed by the world, but it is and right now you could make a real case that the message that's coming out is one that's essentially controlled by people that are perhaps more partisan to the situation inside the Gaza Strip than a lot of international journalists."
Given the history of coverage of the Middle East conflict, it behooves journalists to take great care in how they report stories from both sides of the Gaza battlefront and it will be up to those following the coverage to hold the reporters to the highest journalistic standards.
Even before Israel initiated Operation Cast Lead, many journalists were quick to report whatever they were told by Hamas. When Hamas staged blackouts in Gaza, the media incorrectly reported that Israel was preventing the Gazans from having fuel and electricity. Israel was regularly blamed for a "humanitarian crisis" in Gaza while, at the same time, truckloads of goods were sent in from Israel each day. While Israel's air attacks on Gaza immediately made the front page of newspapers around the world, the rocket barrages on southern Israel, and the impact they have had on the population over the last three years, have rarely been mentioned.
The media often turns conflicts into numbers games, keeping running tallies of casualties. Israel always is accused of disproportion because fewer Israelis typically die in confrontations. Israelis, however, are under no obligation to take greater casualties for the sake of looking better in the media box score. It also should come as no surprise that a regular army that is highly trained and is targeting terrorists will kill more people than the terrorists who are indiscriminately firing explosive rockets at civilian population centers in Israel.
The casualty figures reported by Palestinians have also proven completely unreliable in the past and no one should take them as fact. We know that the Palestinians will routinely call attacks "massacres" and invent large numbers of fatalities, so journalists should be on guard for such unverified claims. Even when bodies are presented as evidence, we have learned that they are often not the victims of an Israeli attack and sometimes they are not even dead (a classic Palestinian video shows a funeral in which the pall bearers drop the stretcher with the "corpse" who then gets up and runs away). Perhaps the most dramatic example occurred when the Washington Post published a photograph during the first Lebanon War of a baby that appeared to have lost both its arms. The UPI caption said that the seven-month-old had been severely burned when an Israeli jet accidentally hit a Christian residential area. The photo disgusted President Reagan and was one reason he subsequently called for Israel to halt its attacks. The photo and the caption, however, were inaccurate. The baby, in fact, did not lose its arms, and the burns the child suffered were the result of a PLO attack on East Beirut.
Early in the Gaza war, the media reported that nearly 300 Gazans were killed in the incursion. These numbers came from Palestinian sources. Moreover, what many reporters left out is the fact that even Palestinians admitted the majority of those casualties were Hamas and Islamic Jihad terrorists.
Some reports have also cited UN officials on conditions in Gaza and these must also be treated as suspect. UN representatives in Gaza are not impartial observers; they are individuals there specifically to aid the Palestinians and are naturally sympathetic to their cause. UN operatives in Palestinian territories have often been found to be apologists for terror with an animus toward Israel. Richard Falk, the special rapporteur on the Palestinian territories, for example, has a long history of venomous anti-Israel remarks.
The media is reporting how the Arab world is outraged by Israeli actions, but this is also not a complete account of the facts. First, most of the Arab world does not get its news from the Western media, which at least claims a measure of objectivity; the leading source of news for most Arabs is Al-Jazeera. This network has no pretensions that it is balanced and presents non-stop coverage from a Palestinian perspective with the aim of generating hostility toward Israel. Al-Jazeera has not been reporting on the incessant rocket fire on Israel or its impact on the population. Still, what is striking is how many Arab leaders and commentators have blamed Hamas for provoking Israel. Also, while Hamas has received some rhetorical support from Arab states, they have shown no interest in coming to the group's defense. Accurate reporting would note that for all their statements of support for the Palestinian cause, none of the Arab states are willing to do any more to defend them. 
It is a journalist's duty to report on every situation in as unbiased a manner as possible. To do this, reporters who interview Palestinian spokespeople or hospital officials should check their facts with other sources, including the IDF and the Israel Foreign Ministry, both of which have been historically honest in their fact-collecting. If journalists are not careful in their reporting of the situation in Gaza they will be later castigated by their colleagues, as was the case after the last Lebanon War. 
     

User avatar
Shurik
Sr. Member
Posts:3774
Joined:Mon Mar 04, 2002 12:17 am
Location:Satellite Of Love
Contact:

Re: At last..IDF finally responds

Post by Shurik » Sat Jan 17, 2009 4:35 am

But they were there. And they made room for you to (OK, re-)settle by third party intervention. It wasn't a bilateral arrangement.
And those who didn't listen to the Arab leaders in 1948, who told people to leave the land and get back after the Arab armies finish off the Jews, are still living here, with full rights. I know Arab doctors, professors, students etc. So, there wasn't a sovereign state, now there is, people live here in relatively western state - why is it a problem? Why should the Jews apologize for turning this piece of land into a western state?
Looks like weapons are indeed being smuggled in from the borders with Egypt. But Iran? Seems that the west is so anti-iranian as the east is anti-semitic these days. Axis of evil and all. Do I have to remind you Iran is the only country in the world the US sold its F-14 fighter aircraft to? Please don't bring up evidence from the CIA or IDF to support your case, the WMD farce in Iraq is still too recent in memory.
Iran produces weapons like rockets and anti-tank missiles, it also buys shitload of weapons from Russia and China, everything those countries are ready to sell (tons of Russian-made first-grade anti-tank missiles were captured in Lebanon in 2006, the long range missiles that are falling in Ashdod and Beer-Sheba are Chinese-made). Iran also smuggles weapons to Lebanon through Syrian borders mostly, but also through Lebanese airports and sea ports (Hezbollah pretty much has a free hand in there). Since Gaza is blockaded, nothing major can't be smuggled there (and that's the reason for the blockade, BTW) from sea or land, so most of the smuggling goes beneath the Gaza-Egypt border through whole network of tunnels which start in Egyptian part of Rafiah and end in Gaza part of it, starting mostly at civilian homes and ending also at civilian homes. Hamas demands the opening of the Gaza borders so it would be easier for them to smuggle everything Iran can send them.
USA should've gone into Iran instead of finishing off Saddam who really didn't have anything out of the ordinary. The Ayatollah's regime in Iran is pretty much evil incarnate, the example of what would happen if insane religious fanatics take the rule.
I know you keep saying how palestinians brought that to themselves since they voted for a terrorist organisation (which Hamas indeed is) but what did you realistically expect to happen in the slum that Gaza is today?
Israel left Gaza 2.5 years ago. Hamas government was elected half a year later - so what is their reason for buying weapons and making homemade rockets instead of doing what the real government should do, making the lives of its citizens better? Or better yet - Arafat was given billions of dollars when he signed the Oslo agreements, where is this money? Why the West Bank cities and Gaza look like they look now, when Palestinian Authority had enough time to at least try to make them better? Why Gaza can't be turned into a tourist city, like Eilat? Why Nablus or Bethlehem or any other historical place that is under Palestinian rule can't be turned into a profitable tourist location? That should make you wonder what is their real goal - peace or destruction of Israel, no matter the cost ...
By the way I read Israel uses weapons containing white phosphorus or some shit like that, which is prohibited. Is that true?
No, but you'll probably won't believe me.
Chemistry is physics without a thought
Mathematics is physics without a purpose

User avatar
NeonVomit
Sr. Member
Posts:4628
Joined:Thu Feb 20, 2003 5:36 pm
Location:London, UK

Re: At last..IDF finally responds

Post by NeonVomit » Sat Jan 17, 2009 4:44 am

browneyedgirl wrote:@miditek, when people see it, they will finally believe it. :)




   
 



Myths & Facts about the Gaza War
http://www.aish.com/jewishissues/middle ... za_War.asp
This article will debunk the following 10 myths:
1. Israel broke the cease-fire with Hamas.
2. Israel has responded to Hamas rocket fire with "disproportionate force." 
3. Palestinians in Gaza are innocent victims. 
4. Israel's operation in Gaza will only embitter Palestinians and make them seek revenge rather than peace. 
5. Israel should negotiate a cease-fire with Hamas. 
6. Hamas targets military objectives. 
7. Hamas fears Israel's military might. 
8. At the end of this war, Israel will have to negotiate with Hamas. 
9. Israel deliberately attacked a UN school. 
10. Media coverage of the Gaza war is fair and accurate.
1. MYTH: Israel broke the cease-fire with Hamas.
FACT
On June 17, 2008, after several months of indirect contacts between Israel and Hamas through Egyptian mediators, Hamas agreed to a cease-fire (tahadiya). Almost immediately afterward, terrorists fired rockets into southern Israel. Despite what it called a "gross violation" of the truce, Israel refrained from military action. In fact, during the six months the arrangement was supposed to be observed, 329 rockets and mortar shells were fired at Israel.
While there were considerably fewer Palestinian assaults after the agreement than before, terror continued. Nevertheless, the IDF did not respond to the provocations. On the contrary, Israel significantly increased the amount of goods delivered to the Gaza Strip.
During this period, Israel also expected to negotiate the release of Gilad Shalit, the Israeli soldier taken hostage by Hamas in June 2006. The group repeatedly increased its demands for the number of prisoners it wanted released in exchange for the lone Israeli captive, but never agreed to grant his freedom.
Violence escalated in early November after the IDF carried out a military operation close to the border security fence on the Gazan side that killed seven Hamas terrorists. Israel acted after discovering that Hamas had dug a tunnel under the fence and planned to abduct more Israeli soldiers. Hamas responded by shelling Israeli towns and has continued the rocket barrage ever since.
When the Hamas-imposed six-month deadline expired in December, Israel hoped an agreement could be reached to extend the cease-fire. Instead, Hamas began firing what would be hundreds of rockets into Israel. 
When the bombardment began, it became apparent Hamas had used the lull to upgrade its arsenal with weapons that were too sophisticated to have been designed or built in Gaza. These advanced Qassam and Grad rockets, which have placed 1-in-every-8 Israelis in mortal danger, originated in Iran. They were smuggled into Gaza in pieces, assembled, and fired from launch pads well-hidden and shielded in Palestinian population centers.
Once launched, hundreds of thousands of Israelis have as little as 15 seconds to reach a bunker before a rocket detonates. Hamas has turned all of southern Israel into a place that more resembles a post-apocalyptic world, rather than a modern, civilized society. Imagine never being able to step outside without remaining in sprinting distance of a concrete bunker. Imagine having to dive into the safety of a bunker 30 times a day, every day. Try to imagine the terror of the rocket whistling down, not knowing whether it will land a mile a way, or directly above your head. 
Can you imagine the sudden shock when you feel the impact, the relief that overcomes you that you are still alive, and the immediate sorrow and concern that follows when you realize that others like -- your family and friends -- may not have been so lucky this time? 
2. MYTH: Israel has responded to Hamas rocket fire with "disproportionate force."
FACT
Article 51 of the United Nations Charter reserves to every nation the right to engage in self-defense against armed attacks. As Professor Alan Dershowitz has also noted, "The claim that Israel has violated the principle of proportionality -- by killing more Hamas terrorists than the number of Israeli civilians killed by Hamas rockets -- is absurd. First, there is no legal equivalence between the deliberate killing of innocent civilians and the deliberate killings of Hamas combatants. Under the laws of war, any number of combatants can be killed to prevent the killing of even one innocent civilian. Second, proportionality is not measured by the number of civilians actually killed, but rather by the risk posed. This is illustrated by what happened on Tuesday (December 30, 2008), when a Hamas rocket hit a kindergarten in Beer Sheva, though no students were there at the time. Under international law, Israel is not required to ! allow Hamas to play Russian roulette with its children's lives."
As the London Times said in response to this charge during Israel's war with Hezbollah, this criticism "is lazy and facile in several ways, especially in implying a moral relativism between the two sides that does not exist. This is not the contest between misguided equals that many in the West seem to see. One is the region's lone democracy, which for much of its existence has faced a very real existential threat and would like, if possible, to live in peace with its neighbors. The other is a terrorist organization, bent on preventing such a future."
Furthermore, Since Hamas' stated objective is the destruction of Israel, isn't the appropriate response the destruction of Hamas? Wouldn't random missile strikes on Palestinian cities be proportionate to Hamas rocket attacks on southern Israel? Can you imagine any of Israel's critics accepting those responses?
When Palestinian terrorists plant bombs at Israeli shopping malls and kill and maims dozens of civilians, would the "proportionate response" be for Israelis to plant bombs in Palestinian malls? No one in Israel believes this would be a legitimate use of force. Thus, Israel is left with the need to take measured action against specific targets in an effort to either deter Palestinian violence or stop it.
What would America do if terrorists fired thousands of rockets targeting U.S. cities? After 9/11, we saw that America took the same type of action as Israel by launching military strikes against the terrorists. U.S. forces used overwhelming force and though they never targeted civilians, some were inadvertently killed. Americans believe in Colin Powell's doctrine, which holds that "America should enter fights with every bit of force available, or not at all."
The United States uses overwhelming force against its enemies, even though the threats are distant and pose no danger to the existence of the nation or the immediate security of its citizens. The threat Israel faces is immediate in time and physical proximity, and poses a direct danger to Israeli citizens. More than 6,000 rockets have now fallen on Israel's cities and now that Hamas has acquired long-range missiles, more than 900,000 civilians are in danger. Still, Israel has not used its full might as the Powell Doctrine dictates. The use of force has been judicious and precise.
Israeli soldiers do not deliberately target noncombatants. The murder of innocents is the goal of the Palestinian terrorists. In fact, what other army drops leaflets to warn people to leave an area they intend to attack even though it gives up the element of surprise and allows the bad guys to hide as well as the innocent to escape?
IDF activities are governed by an overriding policy of restraint and a determination to take all possible measures to prevent harm to innocent civilians.
No innocent Palestinians would be in any danger if the Palestinian Authority took steps to stop terrorism or if the international community, especially the Arab world, had pressured Hamas to stop attacking Israel. 
No innocent Palestinians would be in danger if Hamas terrorists did not deliberately hide among them. If the peace-seeking Palestinians prevented the terrorists from living in their midst, Israel would have no reason to come to their neighborhoods.
It is a tragedy whenever innocent lives are lost, and Israelis have consistently expressed their sadness over Arab casualties. By contrast, when innocent Israelis are murdered by terrorists, Hamas holds rallies to celebrate the murders. 
3. MYTH: Palestinians in Gaza are innocent victims.
FACT
It is tragic that many Palestinians who are not directly involved in terrorism are suffering as a result of the actions of their leaders. While no one wants to see any noncombatants harmed, it is important to acknowledge that all Palestinians in Gaza bear some responsibility for their current predicament. After all, they voted to empower Hamas in an election in which they knew the organization's platform called for the destruction of Israel and the use of terrorism to achieve its aims. 
The Palestinians in Gaza have done nothing during the last three years to stop Hamas from launching rockets into Israel. At any time the people could have said, "Enough! We do not support terror." Instead of allowing rocket crews to fire Qassams from their houses, yards, or neighborhoods, the people could have said, "Stop! I will not allow you to make us a target. I will now allow you to use my family as a shield." 
For the last three years, the Palestinians of Gaza have said, in effect, "We don't mind if Israelis are murdered by Hamas rockets, but the world should support us."
During World War II, the German people were not spared suffering from the Allied invasion because they were noncombatants or because some could claim they were not Nazis and did not support Hitler. All the German people were held to account for their failure to stop their leaders from carrying out their aggression and genocidal policies. 
The Palestinians now are also being held to account. What is different, however, is that unlike the Allies in World War II, Israel is doing everything possible to avoid hurting Palestinian noncombatants despite their culpability. Even now the Palestinians have the power to stop the war by demanding that Hamas cease firing rockets. Alas, they refuse to take the one step within their power to ease their suffering. 
4. MYTH: Israel's operation in Gaza will only embitter Palestinians and make them seek revenge rather than peace.
FACT
After the Blitz in World War II, the British did not worry whether Germans would hate them for bombing their cities. In fact, unlike Israel, the allies had little concern during the war for inflicting suffering on German civilians. Undoubtedly, many Germans still harbor anger toward the British and other allies for their actions during the war, but this did not prevent Germany from ultimately coming to terms with its neighbors and becoming a peaceful member of the international community.
It is not Israeli actions that provoke Palestinians to choose terror over peace, it is the indoctrination of Hamas, which teaches children from an early age to hate Jews, to seek the destruction of Israel and to glorify martyrdom. 
5. MYTH: Israel should negotiate a cease-fire with Hamas.
FACT
Hamas does not negotiate with Israel. Hamas denies Israel's right to exist. Hamas refuses to abide by previously signed agreements. Even the recently-expired six-month "cease-fire" between Israel and Hamas had to be slowly and painstakingly negotiated through Egypt because Hamas would not talk to Israel.
Throughout 2008, Israel worked with the United States toward an equitable two-state solution with the Palestinian Authority while Hamas did everything in its power to disrupt and derail the peace process -- firing thousands of rockets into Israeli towns and cities, firing on Israeli soldiers and civilians, and attempting to infiltrate Israel for the purpose of committing suicide bombing attacks. Hamas also continues to hold 22-year-old Gilad Shalit, the Israeli soldier they kidnapped in June 2006.
Hamas made clear that the "cease-fire" was not a prelude to peace. On the contrary, Hamas used the time to build more tunnels to smuggle weapons and supplies from Egypt; to build more rockets and to improve the range and accuracy of its existing arsenal. A new cease-fire before the tunnels and weapons are destroyed or neutralized would simply give Hamas the opportunity to follow the example of Hezbollah and rearm and regroup for a future battle to achieve its goal of Israel's destruction. 
6. MYTH: Hamas targets military objectives.
FACT
Hamas consistently judges the success of their attacks by the number of Israelis they kill -- men, women, children. Hamas does not even try to attack military targets; their rockets are directed toward towns, cities and farms rather than military bases. The group's rockets land on playgrounds, apartment buildings, public parks, schools and private homes.
Hamas terrorists choose not to expose themselves by firing these weapons from open areas. They construct launch pads in densely populated regions in Gaza, using the local Palestinian population as a shield because they do not care if their fellow Palestinians are killed by their own misfiring rockets (as frequently occurs) or by retaliatory strikes by Israel. The leaders of Hamas, like their ideological soul mates in Hezbollah, actually prefer that Israel hits back because they know that if civilians inadvertently are casualties, the international community will blame the Israelis. 
7. MYTH: Hamas fears Israel's military might.
FACT
Hamas terrorists believe they are fighting a holy war against infidels and that is why no diplomatic agreement with them is possible. It is their religious conviction that they must create an Islamic state and that there is no place in the Islamic world for a Jewish state (or a Christian one for that matter). 
Because of their faith, Hamas foot soldiers believe Allah will welcome them to Paradise if they are killed by Israel in what they see as their defense of Islam. The Hamas terrorists' extremism goes much further. It would be one thing if they were willing to sacrifice their own lives for their beliefs, but they also are prepared to jeopardize the lives of others as well. That is why they have no reticence about using their fellow Palestinians as shields. If Israel is dissuaded from attacking for fear of killing innocents, Hamas can continue to terrorize Israelis with impunity. If Israel does attack, Hamas will use the death of any noncombatants for propaganda purposes and to rally support. 
At the first sign of danger, the leaders of Hamas typically run and hide. Their bravery extends to sending young disciples to become martyrs and using the rest of the population to protect themselves. 
8. MYTH: At the end of this war, Israel will have to negotiate with Hamas.
FACT
Some analysts suggest that Israel cannot destroy Hamas or provoke regime change in Gaza and, therefore, Israelis will have to negotiate in the end with Hamas, making this war a pointless exercise in destruction. 
Hamas has not hidden its objective of destroying Israel. It has conducted a three-year terror war since Israel's evacuation of Gaza, which followed the five-year Palestinian Intifada that claimed more than 1,000 Israeli lives. No country would show the degree of restraint that Israel exhibited as its cities were rocketed. 
The purpose of the Israeli operation is to reduce the possibility of Hamas threatening Israeli lives to as close to zero as possible. No one should expect that the outcome of the war will be a desire on the part of either side to negotiate with the other. Article 13 of the Hamas covenant makes clear the group's raison d'etre: "There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors" (Article 13). 
For Israel, the notion of negotiating with Hamas was best summed up by Golda Meir when she said, "They say we must be dead. And we say we want to be alive. Between life and death, I don't know of a compromise." 
9. MYTH: Israel deliberately attacked a UN school.
FACT
They say that truth is the first casualty of war and Israel has frequently found this to be the case. Reports of Israeli atrocities in its military operations are often out of context, misleading, half-truths, or outright fabrications. Israel often reinforces negative media reports by reacting in a knee-jerk way to accept blame when asked for a reaction to allegations. The media does not wait to learn the truth because that typically requires careful, dispassionate analysis that does not conform to journalists' need to immediately fill time and space.
The best example of this was the infamous case that occurred during an Israeli anti-terror operation in Gaza in 2000 when a TV broadcast showed a Palestinian father shielding his son from bullets. The child was allegedly killed and Israel was immediately blamed. It took many months, but we now know Israeli troops did not kill Mohammed al-Dura.
Israel faced a similar rush to judgment after reports of an Israeli attack on January 6, 2009 on a UN-run school in Jabalya. The building was not being used as a school at the time but was sheltering Palestinian noncombatants. Initial reports said at least 30 Palestinians were killed and UN officials claimed they had given Israeli forces coordinates of this building and others that they said were not associated with Hamas. The incident was immediately portrayed as a deliberate Israeli attack on innocent people.
The details of what happened are still under investigation, but Israel maintains it was not aware that the building was being used as a shelter and that Israeli forces fired at the building because they were attacked by Hamas terrorists launching mortars from the area. Israel later identified two of the casualties at the site as Imad and Hassan Abu Asker, who served as heads of the Hamas mortar units in Gaza. A witness from Jabalya said that he had seen Abu Asker in the area of the school right before the attack when he answered a call for volunteers to pile sand around the camp "to help protect the resistance fighters." In addition, two residents of the area near the school told the Associated Press they had seen a small group of terrorists firing mortar rounds from a street close to the school. A series of explosions followed, indicating the presence of munitions and explosives in the building, which was not being u! sed as a school at the time. 
This is not the first time terrorists have fired mortars from a school in Gaza, nor is it the first time terrorists have exploited UN facilities. UN officials in Gaza, who never condemn Palestinian terror (the UN never passed a resolution condemning Hamas terrorism), have a long record of looking the other way while Hamas carries out its activities. UN officials in Gaza are there to help Palestinians and their bias often clouds their judgment and therefore independent verification is needed before accepting their claims.
We do know that through its use of civilians as shields, Hamas has brought death and destruction to the people of Gaza as well as southern Israel. The loss of life in Jabalya is tragic and would not have happened if Hamas was not rocketing Israel. The rush to blame Israel is also a reminder that first reports out of Gaza cannot be trusted. 
10. MYTH: Media coverage of the Gaza war is fair and accurate.
FACT
Israel has learned that its enemies will do everything they can to manipulate the media to influence public opinion during conflicts such as the one going on in the Gaza Strip. Israel will be accused of massacres, fabricated casualty figures will be distributed, photographs will be doctored and journalists will be threatened. These and other ploys will be used to create sympathy for the Palestinians and cast aspersions on Israeli forces in the hope of turning world opinion against Israel. 
Too often, irresponsible journalists have repeated unverified and often inaccurate information in their haste to be the first to report a story. In an effort to present an evenhanded account, some reporters have the mistaken belief that allowing an Arab spokesperson to lie and then giving an Israeli a chance to respond represents a balanced account. This is like allowing a spokesperson to accuse Israelis of beating their spouses and then inviting an Israeli to deny that they beat their husbands and wives. Israel is always put on the defensive, often through outrageous and false accusations, which are repeated by other media so lies become accepted as truth.
One of the first examples of this in the Gaza war occurred after Israeli forces fired on a UN-run school on January 6, 2009. The press immediately reported that more than 30 Palestinians seeking shelter in the building were killed and the attack was portrayed as a deliberate assault on innocent people. Hours later, Israeli investigators reported that they had fired on the building because they were attacked by Hamas terrorists launching mortars from the area. Witnesses supported the Israeli account, but the initial impression was already created and reinforced by repeated claims by UN officials discounting the Israeli version.
Israel was consistently victimized by Arab propaganda and media irresponsibility during the 2006 Lebanon War. Israel was accused of massacres that never happened. Reuters was duped by doctored photos and had to withdraw them. Other photos, showing Hizballah fighters setting up rockets in civilian neighborhoods were suppressed because they did not conform to Hizballah's propaganda message that Israel was indiscriminately attacking innocent Lebanese. 
Hamas has adopted a similar approach. As CNN's Anderson Cooper reported, "Inside Gaza, press controlled by Hamas is heavy-handed. There are few press freedoms inside Gaza and Hamas controls who reports from there and where they can go. While pictures of wounded children being brought to hospitals are clearly encouraged, we rarely see images of Hamas fighters or their rockets being fired into Israel."
Israel naturally wants to shape media coverage as well, but Israelis know the first time they are caught telling the type of lies common to the other side their credibility will be shot. Moreover, while they may want to exert some influence by, for example, limiting reporters' access to troops, the other side still succeeds in making its case. As CNN's Nic Robertson noted in criticizing Israel's decision not to embed reporters during the Gaza operation, "The officials we talk to say it's for security and our safety, but it creates an impression that they don't want the suffering that's happening in the Gaza Strip right now to be witnessed by the world, but it is and right now you could make a real case that the message that's coming out is one that's essentially controlled by people that are perhaps more partisan to the situation inside the Gaza Strip than a lot of international journalists."
Given the history of coverage of the Middle East conflict, it behooves journalists to take great care in how they report stories from both sides of the Gaza battlefront and it will be up to those following the coverage to hold the reporters to the highest journalistic standards.
Even before Israel initiated Operation Cast Lead, many journalists were quick to report whatever they were told by Hamas. When Hamas staged blackouts in Gaza, the media incorrectly reported that Israel was preventing the Gazans from having fuel and electricity. Israel was regularly blamed for a "humanitarian crisis" in Gaza while, at the same time, truckloads of goods were sent in from Israel each day. While Israel's air attacks on Gaza immediately made the front page of newspapers around the world, the rocket barrages on southern Israel, and the impact they have had on the population over the last three years, have rarely been mentioned.
The media often turns conflicts into numbers games, keeping running tallies of casualties. Israel always is accused of disproportion because fewer Israelis typically die in confrontations. Israelis, however, are under no obligation to take greater casualties for the sake of looking better in the media box score. It also should come as no surprise that a regular army that is highly trained and is targeting terrorists will kill more people than the terrorists who are indiscriminately firing explosive rockets at civilian population centers in Israel.
The casualty figures reported by Palestinians have also proven completely unreliable in the past and no one should take them as fact. We know that the Palestinians will routinely call attacks "massacres" and invent large numbers of fatalities, so journalists should be on guard for such unverified claims. Even when bodies are presented as evidence, we have learned that they are often not the victims of an Israeli attack and sometimes they are not even dead (a classic Palestinian video shows a funeral in which the pall bearers drop the stretcher with the "corpse" who then gets up and runs away). Perhaps the most dramatic example occurred when the Washington Post published a photograph during the first Lebanon War of a baby that appeared to have lost both its arms. The UPI caption said that the seven-month-old had been severely burned when an Israeli jet accidentally hit a Christian residential area. The photo disgusted President Reagan and was one reason he subsequently called for Israel to halt its attacks. The photo and the caption, however, were inaccurate. The baby, in fact, did not lose its arms, and the burns the child suffered were the result of a PLO attack on East Beirut.
Early in the Gaza war, the media reported that nearly 300 Gazans were killed in the incursion. These numbers came from Palestinian sources. Moreover, what many reporters left out is the fact that even Palestinians admitted the majority of those casualties were Hamas and Islamic Jihad terrorists.
Some reports have also cited UN officials on conditions in Gaza and these must also be treated as suspect. UN representatives in Gaza are not impartial observers; they are individuals there specifically to aid the Palestinians and are naturally sympathetic to their cause. UN operatives in Palestinian territories have often been found to be apologists for terror with an animus toward Israel. Richard Falk, the special rapporteur on the Palestinian territories, for example, has a long history of venomous anti-Israel remarks.
The media is reporting how the Arab world is outraged by Israeli actions, but this is also not a complete account of the facts. First, most of the Arab world does not get its news from the Western media, which at least claims a measure of objectivity; the leading source of news for most Arabs is Al-Jazeera. This network has no pretensions that it is balanced and presents non-stop coverage from a Palestinian perspective with the aim of generating hostility toward Israel. Al-Jazeera has not been reporting on the incessant rocket fire on Israel or its impact on the population. Still, what is striking is how many Arab leaders and commentators have blamed Hamas for provoking Israel. Also, while Hamas has received some rhetorical support from Arab states, they have shown no interest in coming to the group's defense. Accurate reporting would note that for all their statements of support for the Palestinian cause, none of the Arab states are willing to do any more to defend them. 
It is a journalist's duty to report on every situation in as unbiased a manner as possible. To do this, reporters who interview Palestinian spokespeople or hospital officials should check their facts with other sources, including the IDF and the Israel Foreign Ministry, both of which have been historically honest in their fact-collecting. If journalists are not careful in their reporting of the situation in Gaza they will be later castigated by their colleagues, as was the case after the last Lebanon War. 
     


Copypasta.


Here is a lsit of people who care or indeed read what you pasted








































































































































































































yes im very drunk but whatever.


the bible was written by someone who was even more drunk than i am about 3000 years ago and the sooner you lot get over it and stop worrying and enjoy life without worrying about some imaginary sky god looking at you while you're in the bathroom the better.


Then the crazies will have no 'justification to blow each other up and we'll all be happier.

HINT BIBLICAL SOURCES FOR current 21ST CENTURY ISSUES ARE NOT ACCEPTED BECAUSE THEY ARE CRAZY DRUG STORIES
"Beneath the freezing sky arrives Winter's Verge..."

http://www.wintersverge.com


I'm going to hell, and loving the ride!

User avatar
NeonVomit
Sr. Member
Posts:4628
Joined:Thu Feb 20, 2003 5:36 pm
Location:London, UK

Re: At last..IDF finally responds

Post by NeonVomit » Sat Jan 17, 2009 5:02 am

miditek wrote:Israel, Islam, and Armageddon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsOV7wZ8kVo

The eyes of the world are upon Jerusalem, just as the biblical prophets had foretold thousands of years ago.

This conflict will consume the entire world.
Look, we all know you sit in the corner getting off to Mein Kampf. I guess the bible is as close to that as one can 'legally' get but hell, it's the 21st century, people can get off on anything!

The middle eastern issue is nothing that a few nuclear weapons wouldn't sort out once and for all.


Please, Kim Il Jon, launch a few of your nukes that you were so unwilling to show us at Israel. Sure, you'll take out about 8 million people but c'mon man! You'll do us all a favour, no more Middle EASTERN ISSU And 'Miditek: He's not my president!' Obama will have an excuse with LADY MCBe*hackcoughcoughkahc*Mrs Clinton to launch a couple of nukes at you! 2 birds with one stone! come on man!

Just dont do it when the prevailing winds are blowing west to cyprus.









Actually, fuckit. I hate the place.

Go for it Kimbo! while you have the mental capacitiy YOU FUCKING STROKE VICTIM
"Beneath the freezing sky arrives Winter's Verge..."

http://www.wintersverge.com


I'm going to hell, and loving the ride!

User avatar
browneyedgirl
Sr. Member
Posts:27239
Joined:Thu Aug 29, 2002 6:00 pm
Location:Starfall
Contact:

Re: At last..IDF finally responds

Post by browneyedgirl » Sat Jan 17, 2009 5:02 am

LOL! Since you have made it pretty big in the music field, NV, you have become a regular smartass "know-it-all". I can remember when you would have just ignored peoples posts you did not agree with. :)

The reason I copied, was because I know a few in this forum are so biased they would not have read just the link.

And, the article is not one-sided or biased. Alot of work and research was put into it by the author. So, just because you do not agree with views posted here, don't be an ass about it, drunk or not. And, more people care than you realize, thank goodness for that.

User avatar
NeonVomit
Sr. Member
Posts:4628
Joined:Thu Feb 20, 2003 5:36 pm
Location:London, UK

Re: At last..IDF finally responds

Post by NeonVomit » Sat Jan 17, 2009 5:04 am

I am so banned.
"Beneath the freezing sky arrives Winter's Verge..."

http://www.wintersverge.com


I'm going to hell, and loving the ride!

User avatar
NeonVomit
Sr. Member
Posts:4628
Joined:Thu Feb 20, 2003 5:36 pm
Location:London, UK

Re: At last..IDF finally responds

Post by NeonVomit » Sat Jan 17, 2009 5:04 am

browneyedgirl wrote:LOL! Since you have made it pretty big in the music field
No, im just about 5 times the legal limit and about to pass out
"Beneath the freezing sky arrives Winter's Verge..."

http://www.wintersverge.com


I'm going to hell, and loving the ride!

User avatar
browneyedgirl
Sr. Member
Posts:27239
Joined:Thu Aug 29, 2002 6:00 pm
Location:Starfall
Contact:

Re: At last..IDF finally responds

Post by browneyedgirl » Sat Jan 17, 2009 5:17 am

NeonVomit wrote:I am so banned.
I don't think so, but after laughing my ass off I'd give you a warning if I were a mod. But, no real harm done. I've saw people post worse and not get banned. You didn't really attack people, just their beliefs. Thats not too nice, but its not bannable.
Personally I find those childish message pics people post worse than words, but thats just me.

Take an aspirin and Get some sleep, NV. I've been there myself, many times! ;)

User avatar
NeonVomit
Sr. Member
Posts:4628
Joined:Thu Feb 20, 2003 5:36 pm
Location:London, UK

Re: At last..IDF finally responds

Post by NeonVomit » Sat Jan 17, 2009 5:21 am

browneyedgirl wrote: Personally I find those childish message pics people post worse than words, but thats just me.
Now now theres nothing that cats can do wrong.

Yes, plenty of fluids. A nice heavy friday night is sometimes a good thing after a tough week! I then unleash it upon this and other forums (fora?)

Goodnight sweet princes.
"Beneath the freezing sky arrives Winter's Verge..."

http://www.wintersverge.com


I'm going to hell, and loving the ride!

User avatar
Carcass
Sr. Member
Posts:1186
Joined:Sat Sep 23, 2006 10:41 am
Location:Finland

Re: At last..IDF finally responds

Post by Carcass » Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:21 am

Bathory Killcraft wrote:I don't believe in a palestinian identity or ethnicity and whatnot. They are more likely Transjordan arabs(as miditek mentioned earlier) not descendands of the phoenician or the philistine people as they claim and there wasn't an official palestinian state either.
What academics write in their chambers is one thing and what the subject actually feels is another. As I already hinted, national identities are fluid, rather then fixed. The idea of fixed identities is called essentialism in the academia, and is pretty much a curse word nowadays. I probably will not convince people by refereing to the academic world - which, as we know, is full of Marxists and antichrists - but it really makes sense if you do some reading on it.

Now, what I'm getting at is that national identities are always created (unconsciosly, but more often than not, consciously) at some point in time. Happened in Germany, France, Finland, and perhaps more recently in Palestine. In my opinion the followong is a good definition: if a group of people identifies themselves as a nation, then they are a nation.

All that blethering about Indo-European blood and heritage hints that you probably will not swallow a letter of what I wrote. MEH

User avatar
Carcass
Sr. Member
Posts:1186
Joined:Sat Sep 23, 2006 10:41 am
Location:Finland

Re: At last..IDF finally responds

Post by Carcass » Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:31 am

NeonVomit wrote:Now now theres nothing that cats can do wrong.
I believe she was refering to the 'offensive' picture that I posted - not the lolcats. It seemed to illustrate the point that NV and BK were making. I might not be at my sharpest at the moment, I've had fever for couple of days now and feel like I live in a haze world.

MEH

User avatar
Carcass
Sr. Member
Posts:1186
Joined:Sat Sep 23, 2006 10:41 am
Location:Finland

Re: At last..IDF finally responds

Post by Carcass » Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:45 am

browneyedgirl wrote: Myths & Facts about the Gaza War
http://www.aish.com/jewishissues/middle ... za_War.asp
Excessive copypasta is indeed boring and there is only so much I can read with this fucking fever.

The author seems to be a prime example of the sort of people who think that everything Israelis do is right. I know they produced some kick-ass scientists, but isn't that too much expected from human beings? Then there is, of course, those who think that everything Israelis do is wrong.

I stand somewhere in between.


ALSO: The article is not biased? Did you check the front page? Nothing wrong with the site per se, but not biased? Come on.

User avatar
Bathory Killcraft
Member
Posts:290
Joined:Thu Apr 11, 2002 4:56 pm

Re: At last..IDF finally responds

Post by Bathory Killcraft » Sat Jan 17, 2009 7:09 pm

Copy pasting of that scale is really retarded...
Black Metal is the game I play cos' no one shows me the right way...

User avatar
Bathory Killcraft
Member
Posts:290
Joined:Thu Apr 11, 2002 4:56 pm

Re: At last..IDF finally responds

Post by Bathory Killcraft » Sat Jan 17, 2009 7:58 pm

Carcass wrote:All that blethering about Indo-European blood and heritage hints that you probably will not swallow a letter of what I wrote. MEH
That was good Mr.Carcass...that was good :lol:
Black Metal is the game I play cos' no one shows me the right way...

User avatar
Mormegil
Sr. Member
Posts:4327
Joined:Fri Apr 25, 2003 2:31 pm
Location:United States of Europe, FI, Pori
Contact:

Re: At last..IDF finally responds

Post by Mormegil » Sat Jan 17, 2009 9:08 pm

Hey, finnish blood and heritage was good enough for Hitler himself. :lol:

Don't mind me, keep it up guys. I've been reading your discussion with interest.

User avatar
Carcass
Sr. Member
Posts:1186
Joined:Sat Sep 23, 2006 10:41 am
Location:Finland

Re: At last..IDF finally responds

Post by Carcass » Sat Jan 17, 2009 10:11 pm

Bathory Killcraft wrote:
Carcass wrote:All that blethering about Indo-European blood and heritage hints that you probably will not swallow a letter of what I wrote. MEH
That was good Mr.Carcass...that was good :lol:
So did you or did you not swallow?

User avatar
Carcass
Sr. Member
Posts:1186
Joined:Sat Sep 23, 2006 10:41 am
Location:Finland

Re: At last..IDF finally responds

Post by Carcass » Sat Jan 17, 2009 10:24 pm

Mormegil wrote:Hey, finnish blood and heritage was good enough for Hitler himself.
But not for Pentti Linkola. He said it was no wonder that Finnish girls were attracted to German soldiers. According to him Finnish men are tuhnusia länkisääriä.

I will not even attempt to translate that. :)

User avatar
Shurik
Sr. Member
Posts:3774
Joined:Mon Mar 04, 2002 12:17 am
Location:Satellite Of Love
Contact:

Re: At last..IDF finally responds

Post by Shurik » Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:31 pm

Bathory Killcraft wrote:Copy pasting of that scale is really retarded...
Yeah, where are those times when people could actually write posts of this length, be it about politics or music.

BEG, no offense, but it was too damn long even considering the fact that it sounded like a speech of a far-right Israeli politician ...
Chemistry is physics without a thought
Mathematics is physics without a purpose

User avatar
browneyedgirl
Sr. Member
Posts:27239
Joined:Thu Aug 29, 2002 6:00 pm
Location:Starfall
Contact:

Re: At last..IDF finally responds

Post by browneyedgirl » Sun Jan 18, 2009 3:59 am

Israel has announced a ceasefire, but are leaving some ground troops in Gaza for insurance. Hamas has said they will fight this.....

Locked