Stratovarius on sweden rock... at the same time as Guns....

Here you can talk about Stratovarius and related bands. Language used is English.
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Re: Stratovarius on sweden rock... at the same time as Guns....

Post by Rebel » Thu May 06, 2010 7:04 pm

icecab21 wrote:There was a time just has standard melodic guitar, not sure how that’s diverse and outside of anything guns and roses had done before or outside their areas of genre that they have previously touched with slash. It’s done well, but it’s not the genre diversity that I was thinking about.
You failed to address the other two songs.
But, no. Let's look at 4 songs.
Shackler's Revenge, If the World, Sorry, and There was a Time. All four heavily featured Buckethead. Those four songs, taken in context from each other, are HUGELY diverse. maybe TWAT is more melodic guitar, but it is very diverse from the other 3 songs I listed. That diversity did not exist on previous Guns records, or anything Slash did post Guns.

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Re: Stratovarius on sweden rock... at the same time as Guns....

Post by icecab21 » Thu May 06, 2010 7:43 pm

Maybe with "TWAT" its' best to just give the song name with an acronym like that.

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Re: Stratovarius on sweden rock... at the same time as Guns....

Post by Intiaani » Thu May 06, 2010 8:29 pm

Rebel wrote:
icecab21 wrote:There was a time just has standard melodic guitar, not sure how that’s diverse and outside of anything guns and roses had done before or outside their areas of genre that they have previously touched with slash. It’s done well, but it’s not the genre diversity that I was thinking about.
You failed to address the other two songs.
But, no. Let's look at 4 songs.
Shackler's Revenge, If the World, Sorry, and There was a Time. All four heavily featured Buckethead. Those four songs, taken in context from each other, are HUGELY diverse. maybe TWAT is more melodic guitar, but it is very diverse from the other 3 songs I listed. That diversity did not exist on previous Guns records, or anything Slash did post Guns.
Also, before Guns sounded good, unlike nowadays.
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Re: Stratovarius on sweden rock... at the same time as Guns....

Post by Rebel » Thu May 06, 2010 9:46 pm

icecab21 wrote:Maybe with "TWAT" its' best to just give the song name with an acronym like that.

Ya know, considering the lyrical content of the album, I think Axl knew EXACTLY what he was doing with that acronym.

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Re: Stratovarius on sweden rock... at the same time as Guns....

Post by Rebel » Fri May 07, 2010 1:49 am

icecab21 wrote:Slash is one of the most critically acclaimed and in demand for session work guitarists out there .
Also. Let's address the biggest logical fallacy of this post.
"in demand for session work".

I'm not sure what the demand for Slash is right now. He's been dropped by two record labels since he left GNR. Resulting in two failed bands.
Buckethead could literally pick up the phone right now and be on the next record for anyone from Ozzy Osbourne, to Bootsy Collins, to Serj Tankian, Bernie Worrell, to Travis Dickerson, to Jonas Hellborg, to Viggo Mortenson... list goes on, and I'm sure I'm forgetting quite a few people here.

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Re: Stratovarius on sweden rock... at the same time as Guns....

Post by icecab21 » Fri May 07, 2010 7:52 am

Why are you bringing buckethead into this, I never compared slash to buckethead. I just said that slash is a guitarist with virtuoso credentials in some styles of guitar playing. the lowest that i think it could go is that he is a professional guitarist who has made a huge impact on music.

What does a band have to do with session work? There is a lot more factors in a band that can sell records than in a person being in demand to perform a solo or play some guitar parts in the studio or guest for a special live show. There are plenty of people that are in more demand for session work or appearances than being in a band.

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Re: Stratovarius on sweden rock... at the same time as Guns....

Post by Rebel » Fri May 07, 2010 8:01 am

icecab21 wrote:Why are you bringing buckethead into this, I never compared slash to bucket head. I just said that slash is a guitarist with virtuoso credentials that is independent of other guitarists since it’s based on the techniques a guitarist can perform and how well they are at performing what is asked of them on a skill to skill basis. Maybe on a list of 100 techniques slash can do x number well and bucket head can do a greater number, but that does not take away from the x number that slash can do well and that he is a expert at that can perform at will.


What does a band have to do with session work? There is a lot more factors in a band that can sell records than in a person being in demand to perform a solo or play some guitar parts in the studio or guest for a special live show. There are plenty of people that are in more demand for session work or appearances than being in a band.
The X number that Slash can play, and is proficient in, is Blues and Hard Rock.
Which happen to be among some of my favorite genres ever, but Slash's talent to not a virtuoso make. Virtuosos, unless we want to dilute and water down to worthlessness, are INCREDIBLY rare. There are probably 5, maybe 10 guitar virtuosos to have played in the last 50 years, and even that might be a bit much.

Now, individual genres have their virtuosos, Yngwie Malmsteen is a Neo-Classical virtuoso, but I would not classify him as a GUITAR virtuoso. Same with Petrucci, he's a prog metal virtuoso, he plays that genre as proficient as anyone could possibly play it, but he's not a guitar virtuoso.

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Re: Stratovarius on sweden rock... at the same time as Guns....

Post by icecab21 » Fri May 07, 2010 8:30 am

Ok, so genre rather than guitar. But I doubt buckedhead can play every style known to man at a top level. If you want to make a list that gives an example of him playing every style that you can think of and every technique out there go ahead, that would be interesting in the least.

How many genres do you think a guitarist should have to cover and which genre and why would some be left out and others included?

How do we know the guitarists could not pick up the style if they were interested in it?

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Re: Stratovarius on sweden rock... at the same time as Guns....

Post by NeonVomit » Fri May 07, 2010 12:53 pm

Buckethead's good, there's better guitar players out there though.
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Re: Stratovarius on sweden rock... at the same time as Guns....

Post by Rage1979 » Fri May 07, 2010 8:00 pm

My ticket is booked ;)

Am I the only spectator? ;)

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Re: Stratovarius on sweden rock... at the same time as Guns....

Post by Intiaani » Sat May 08, 2010 2:36 am

I'm certainly following this. This is interesting.

There's a citation from the book Music in the Western World in Wikipedia that states, "...a virtuoso was, originally, a highly accomplished musician, but by the nineteenth century the term had become restricted to performers, both vocal and instrumental, whose technical accomplishments were so pronounced as to dazzle the public." Technical accomplishments? Aren't there numerous technical wizards per a band instrument nowadays? For me, though, what mostly amazes me is that there's some *it* in the playing. Great compositions and the feeling the musician is putting to their play. Aren't these even more technical aspects than mastering many playing styles? For me the most virtuoso-like guitarists ever might actually be Carlos Santana, Mark Knopfler and Timo Tolkki because I think there is at best something (irrationally) very special in their playing. :) Just a little something to possibly bring new aspects to this discussion.

I'm also interested to know whoever you guys consider as virtuosos. You could remain abstract too if you rather wish though. :) In my mind there are not some constants to define a virtuoso, but opinions and music tastes, personal feelings.

Oh and Chinese Democracy really isn't that bad, but I wouldn't even compare it to Appetite or UYIs myself. :(
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Re: Stratovarius on sweden rock... at the same time as Guns....

Post by icecab21 » Sat May 08, 2010 8:29 am

To me, it’s about skill mastery of a field of choice.
With that it can then be qualified to areas of where the skill mastery is. Since emotional aspects are subjective, I feel that just gives more room to qualify and make virtuoso on that level a subjective rather than a true or false. We can take general consensus of emotions for a level of this but that’s just the frame that needs to be qualified

As far as experimentation and diversity go, I’m not sure how to qualify what kinds of diversity make a person diverse enough to qualify and as far as experimentation goes, in today’s world imp not sure there has been much not covered. How much should influence be tied into the whole equation and the opportunity to be heard? There are all sorts of people all around the world that figure out different ways to play instruments and make music all the time but they don’t get heard. There are all sorts of people playing around with technology to make music but by not being heard are not getting the status.

Innovation wise, what has buckethead done that has sparked a new way of viewing guitar playing? Then we go into aspects of invention, improvement, and opportunity for social change and influence, as we know plenty of people have played what others have done before and gotten the marketing chances. Plenty of right time right places go on in music.

Another aspect is, of any given skill, what is the ability to pick it up? I don’t think we can assume a person would or would not learn a skill just because we have not heard them play it nor does that show us their ability to pick up the skill if they put time into learning it. I don’t feel we can measure peak learning and performance potential just like that. There is always the chance for one person to learn quicker, but another to have more potential peak learning.

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Re: Stratovarius on sweden rock... at the same time as Guns....

Post by Rebel » Sat May 08, 2010 9:28 am

Intiaani wrote:I'm certainly following this. This is interesting.

There's a citation from the book Music in the Western World in Wikipedia that states, "...a virtuoso was, originally, a highly accomplished musician, but by the nineteenth century the term had become restricted to performers, both vocal and instrumental, whose technical accomplishments were so pronounced as to dazzle the public." Technical accomplishments? Aren't there numerous technical wizards per a band instrument nowadays? For me, though, what mostly amazes me is that there's some *it* in the playing. Great compositions and the feeling the musician is putting to their play. Aren't these even more technical aspects than mastering many playing styles? For me the most virtuoso-like guitarists ever might actually be Carlos Santana, Mark Knopfler and Timo Tolkki because I think there is at best something (irrationally) very special in their playing. :) Just a little something to possibly bring new aspects to this discussion.

I'm also interested to know whoever you guys consider as virtuosos. You could remain abstract too if you rather wish though. :) In my mind there are not some constants to define a virtuoso, but opinions and music tastes, personal feelings.

Oh and Chinese Democracy really isn't that bad, but I wouldn't even compare it to Appetite or UYIs myself. :(
Well. I try to make it more interesting than the Icecab/Ragehead shitstorms, which always devolve to their core of "IT'S NOT HEAVY ENOUGH!"

"BUT PEOPLE LOVE IT!"

"WHAT PEOPLE? OBVIOUSLY PEOPLE WITH SHITTY OPINIONS"

"WHAT IS SHIT? WHAT IS AN OPINION? WHAT ARE PEOPLE? WHAT DOES WHAT EVEN MEAN? HOW CAN YOU USE ALL THESE WORDS AND NOT KNOW THE SOCIOPHILISOPHICAL IMPLICATIONS OF WHAT YOU ARE SPEWING?!?!?!?!!?!?!?!?!?!"

Right about now, A10 usually enters the discussion to liven things up and everyone can safely read the thread again.

But. I'll try to get a diatribe on virtuosity tomorrow.

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Re: Stratovarius on sweden rock... at the same time as Guns....

Post by robocop656 » Sat May 08, 2010 9:39 am

Have you ever heard of Stanley Jordan? (plays guitar with 2 hand tapping technique)
And Allan Holdsworth??
And Guthrie Govan??
Or Shawn Lane???
Or Joe Pass??

There's just one thing I wanted to make clear. (don't know why)
There's a big difference between technique alone and playing music and grooving. I don't hate Buckethead at all, I listened to ALL his cds....
But to the casual listener, he or she might not understand music and the repetitive scales and modes being used over and over that other musicians might point out just doesn't attribute to make the music any better. Other people are put off by the gimmicks and rumors...but what matters the most is the music don't you think? You can have all the technique in the world but that doesn't always write the song. Oh yeah, listen to Steve Morse too.

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Re: Stratovarius on sweden rock... at the same time as Guns....

Post by Intiaani » Sat May 08, 2010 9:57 pm

robocop656 wrote:but what matters the most is the music don't you think? You can have all the technique in the world but that doesn't always write the song.
Yeah. One could actually think being too much a "virtuoso" in the technical side limits his/her ability to compose a cohesive, pleasant song, because they can do so much and want to show it in that song.

Then again, subjectivity. I said this because in general, the most popular songs in the world are simple and coherent. Someone might of course be moved from sheer technical display, though, while other thinks that music is too sprawling, it lacks emotion and it's hard to get. For example.
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Re: Stratovarius on sweden rock... at the same time as Guns....

Post by robocop656 » Sun May 09, 2010 12:04 am

Yes. Everything is subject to scrutiny. Everybody has their own tastes. It doesn't matter how many questions you ask or why is this and why is that. It just takes you away from the main point. THE MUSIC!

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Re: Stratovarius on sweden rock... at the same time as Guns....

Post by AAAAAAAAAA » Sun May 09, 2010 12:32 am

robocop656 wrote:Yes. Everything is subject to scrutiny. Everybody has their own tastes. It doesn't matter how many questions you ask or why is this and why is that. It just takes you away from the main point. THE MUSIC!
I see Robocop has suddenly become some kind of philosopher :lol:

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Re: Stratovarius on sweden rock... at the same time as Guns....

Post by robocop656 » Sun May 09, 2010 1:31 am

What version of me do you like more?

The guy who posts naked guy pics as reply's to everyone's posts, or the ultra brutal redneck middle america brain storming?? I've got nothing on ice car or those other guys. I fall asleep after reading half of a sentence. You know that means they are serious business types.

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Re: Stratovarius on sweden rock... at the same time as Guns....

Post by NeonVomit » Sun May 09, 2010 2:08 am

There is only serious business on the stratoforum.
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Re: Stratovarius on sweden rock... at the same time as Guns....

Post by Babylonian » Sun May 09, 2010 12:04 pm

robocop656 wrote:I've got nothing on ice car or those other guys.
Why everyone calls him Icecar? He is Icecab not Icecar.

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Re: Stratovarius on sweden rock... at the same time as Guns....

Post by Stratowarius » Sun May 09, 2010 1:11 pm

:) Icecar has given an earnest request, an entreaty, to be reinitiated as Icecar and some of us comply to his modest wish...

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Re: Stratovarius on sweden rock... at the same time as Guns....

Post by AAAAAAAAAA » Sun May 09, 2010 5:40 pm

Babylonian wrote:
robocop656 wrote:I've got nothing on ice car or those other guys.
Why everyone calls him Icecar? He is Icecab not Icecar.
He has earned that title on account of his high emissions. He also really needs a tuneup. :lol:

Icecar and I are buddies now, by the way 8) And you heard that "straight from the asses mouth" :laff:

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Re: Stratovarius on sweden rock... at the same time as Guns....

Post by Rage1979 » Wed May 12, 2010 9:50 am

I missed them during the tour. I was spendning 4 months in hospital. (I did my third transplan)

Bought one day ticket to Sweden rock just for Stratovarius ;)

But there are few other bands to see that day.

I always wanted to see

Skyclad
WASP
Kiske (Unisonic)
Dream evil

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Re: Stratovarius on sweden rock... at the same time as Guns....

Post by ggonza43 » Wed May 12, 2010 5:18 pm

Rage1979 wrote:I missed them during the tour. I was spendning 4 months in hospital. (I did my third transplan)
:shock: What happened? Hope it turned out OK :)
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Re: Stratovarius on sweden rock... at the same time as Guns....

Post by Rage1979 » Wed May 12, 2010 5:41 pm

ggonza43 wrote:
Rage1979 wrote:I missed them during the tour. I was spendning 4 months in hospital. (I did my third transplan)
:shock: What happened? Hope it turned out OK :)
so far so good... after 3½ years illnes I hope it will stay ok.

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Re: Stratovarius on sweden rock... at the same time as Guns....

Post by ggonza43 » Wed May 12, 2010 5:49 pm

Rage1979 wrote:
ggonza43 wrote:
Rage1979 wrote:I missed them during the tour. I was spendning 4 months in hospital. (I did my third transplan)
:shock: What happened? Hope it turned out OK :)
so far so good... after 3½ years illnes I hope it will stay ok.
But what happened? What sort of problem do you have, I mean which illness?
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Re: Stratovarius on sweden rock... at the same time as Guns....

Post by Rage1979 » Fri May 14, 2010 9:16 am

ggonza43 wrote:
Rage1979 wrote:
ggonza43 wrote:
Rage1979 wrote:I missed them during the tour. I was spendning 4 months in hospital. (I did my third transplan)
:shock: What happened? Hope it turned out OK :)
so far so good... after 3½ years illnes I hope it will stay ok.
But what happened? What sort of problem do you have, I mean which illness?
My kindeys stopped working, only had a few percent function. I did get a new one in october 2008 1½ year after they found out what my proböem was. It didn't turn out that well, been in and out in hospital all the time. Did a new transplan january this year, they gave me new veins also, a much bigger sergery. I feel good now, I hope it will stay this way now...

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Re: Stratovarius on sweden rock... at the same time as Guns....

Post by NeonVomit » Fri May 14, 2010 12:44 pm

Damn... how old are you, if you don't mind my asking?
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Re: Stratovarius on sweden rock... at the same time as Guns....

Post by Rage1979 » Fri May 14, 2010 6:02 pm

NeonVomit wrote:Damn... how old are you, if you don't mind my asking?
Born 1979 ;)

That makes me 31 :)

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Re: Stratovarius on sweden rock... at the same time as Guns....

Post by ggonza43 » Wed May 19, 2010 6:33 pm

Hope you are OK :). Back to the subject, when and where it's the next GN'R show?
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