SonatAArcticA Fans Report in!

hiro23 · Post by **hiro23** » Sat Aug 21, 2010 5:50 am

To me they are like Helloween, a bit different on every album but still good all the same.

Icecab:I agree with your statement, I mean it's cool for the man to not like it but to say it sucks I think is a bit harsh

HinatAArcticA · Post by **HinatAArcticA** » Sun Aug 22, 2010 5:56 am

Fellow · Post by **Fellow** » Mon Aug 23, 2010 3:35 pm

It's cool how they just throw that in there

. what's the random guitar shred at the end?

Well, I've gone ahead and made a Tony Kakko video

what do you think?

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/4zuyaDFuOo8?fs ... ram><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/4zuyaDFuOo8?fs=1&hl=en_GB" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zuyaDFuOo8

HinatAArcticA · Post by **HinatAArcticA** » Thu Aug 26, 2010 2:26 am

Fellow wrote: what's the random guitar shred at the end?

Well, I've gone ahead and made a Tony Kakko video what do you think?

The guitar shred is the end of Stratosphere xD

About Tony. Just as TK, he's been loosing his high voice over the years. The only difference is that Sonata plays some old songs in lower keys, and Tony can sing them and they sound good. TK just sings the songs in their original key and it's starting to sound forced. I wonder how long will it be until Strato starts doing that with the songs. TK's voice won't last that high forever.

Fellow · Post by **Fellow** » Thu Aug 26, 2010 3:04 am

Indeedy. Though that A5 was taken from a recent 2010 show

. It is falsetto though, which is different to the more powerful sounding head voice he usually uses with high notes (he might even be able to go higher with falsetto).

I'm not sure whether he could sing that Destruction Preventer G#5 with head voice anymore... maybe he could push himself to F#5 or even G5. This is just guessing, though. But he does go up to E5 and sometimes F5 in live shows.

I think it's good Tony sings some live songs in lower key though (Weballergy's a good example), for it means he's looking after his voice

.

I think Kotipelto should be doing the same, really... listen to his E5's in recent live versions of Father Time, they sounds very, hm, "yelped" to me. He used to sing it great years ago. He has an awesome voice but I wonder if he's damaging it these days :S

Why does time have to affect these singers damnit

lol

Incidentally, I also have a Kotipelto video:
<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/35ox1W8jtas?fs ... ram><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/35ox1W8jtas?fs=1&hl=en_GB" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

He could probably go a bit lower but I haven't heard any clips.

AAAAAAAAAA · Post by **AAAAAAAAAA** » Thu Aug 26, 2010 3:49 am

Fellow wrote:Indeedy. Though that A5 was taken from a recent 2010 show .

Indeed

My dear sister was kidnapped from a recent Stratovarius concert. We have scoured all of Phallustine and Vuvuzuela for her. I think she was taken by a really naughty sperm whale with braces named Eddie

Kosmo · Post by **Kosmo** » Thu Aug 26, 2010 7:20 am

Sorry for using this term but LOL'd.

HinatAArcticA · Post by **HinatAArcticA** » Thu Aug 26, 2010 8:56 pm

Fellow · Post by **Fellow** » Thu Aug 26, 2010 11:22 pm

I see your Weballergy, and I raise you...

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/ev3VwmpBXyo?fs ... ram><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/ev3VwmpBXyo?fs=1&hl=en_GB" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

Pokémon sung by Tony Kakko!
(those Weballergy videos do show a huge improvement in Tony's voice though

)

Kosmo · Post by **Kosmo** » Fri Aug 27, 2010 6:25 am

My god...Never had i imagined to hear Tony sing THAT song...

But it's fucking good!

Rebel · Post by **Rebel** » Fri Aug 27, 2010 6:13 pm

So I finally realized the biggest reason for DoG sucking.
On the first 5 albums, Tony would write the music, but apparently Jani would just ignore Tony and heavily modify the guitar parts, adding his own flair in, whereas Elias went by the book with what Tony laid out. I think a combination of Tony getting lazy about guitar, and not being all too good at writing guitar parts in the first place led to the really unbalanced, fractured sound I hear on DoG. I think the band's sound really relied on Jani's changes.

Mehida · Post by **Mehida** » Sat Aug 28, 2010 1:46 am

Rebel wrote:So I finally realized the biggest reason for DoG sucking.
On the first 5 albums, Tony would write the music, but apparently Jani would just ignore Tony and heavily modify the guitar parts, adding his own flair in, whereas Elias went by the book with what Tony laid out. I think a combination of Tony getting lazy about guitar, and not being all too good at writing guitar parts in the first place led to the really unbalanced, fractured sound I hear on DoG. I think the band's sound really relied on Jani's changes.

Well, guitars are heavier in Reckoning Night if you compare them with the previous albums, and in Unia there are only a few guitar solos while before you had at least one (if not more) in almost all the songs. Really, Unia (Jani) and The Days Of Gray (Elias) are not too different, now, Ecliptica is completly another world.
So, when creating riffs and arranging some parts Jani might have influence, but I guess the sound was always Tony's thing.
Maybe now Tony thinks fragmented-heavy-slow-confusing music is nicer to listen to, I don't know. But remember Jani played in Ecliptica as well as in Unia.

Rebel · Post by **Rebel** » Sat Aug 28, 2010 2:37 am

Mehida wrote:
Rebel wrote:So I finally realized the biggest reason for DoG sucking.
On the first 5 albums, Tony would write the music, but apparently Jani would just ignore Tony and heavily modify the guitar parts, adding his own flair in, whereas Elias went by the book with what Tony laid out. I think a combination of Tony getting lazy about guitar, and not being all too good at writing guitar parts in the first place led to the really unbalanced, fractured sound I hear on DoG. I think the band's sound really relied on Jani's changes.
Well, guitars are heavier in Reckoning Night if you compare them with the previous albums, and in Unia there are only a few guitar solos while before you had at least one (if not more) in almost all the songs. Really, Unia (Jani) and The Days Of Gray (Elias) are not too different, now, Ecliptica is completly another world.
So, when creating riffs and arranging some parts Jani might have influence, but I guess the sound was always Tony's thing.
Maybe now Tony thinks fragmented-heavy-slow-confusing music is nicer to listen to, I don't know. But remember Jani played in Ecliptica as well as in Unia.

I liked Unia, and what it lacked in finger flashing guitar solos, it made up for in authoritative, powerful guitar riffs and melodies

HinatAArcticA · Post by **HinatAArcticA** » Sat Aug 28, 2010 5:05 am

Rebel wrote:So I finally realized the biggest reason for DoG sucking.
On the first 5 albums, Tony would write the music, but apparently Jani would just ignore Tony and heavily modify the guitar parts, adding his own flair in, whereas Elias went by the book with what Tony laid out. I think a combination of Tony getting lazy about guitar, and not being all too good at writing guitar parts in the first place led to the really unbalanced, fractured sound I hear on DoG. I think the band's sound really relied on Jani's changes.

Actually... I totally disagree...
UNIA has almost no solos. The cover song on the album, Out in the Fields has only keyboard solos. My Dream's But a Drop of Fuel for a Nightmare has no guitar solo at all.

The Days of Grays do lack guitar solos, but to blame on Elias for The Days of Grays being different is just not right. Tony is the mastermind of the band, so even when he does not compse the guitar solos, he does choose where in the songs are they supposed to be. That's why UNIA has not that many solos, nor The Days of Grays.

There's one song composed by Henkka in The Days of Grays, "Nothing More" which I posted in page 2 of this topic I think. The song has a guitar solo and a twin solo with the keys and the guitar.

How do I know Tony does not compose any solos? Because he won't even compose the keyboard solos either, and this is too obvious when listening to the solos in Silence next to the ones by Henkka in RN, UNIA and TDOG.

Blaming on Elias is just not right and not fair. The album lacks solos, I know and I would add some solos here and there, but Tony's idea for The Days of Grays was to build an album where the most important thing was the harmony, and it is. TDOG has an amazing harmony work.

I also failed to catch the "sonata sound" in Cain's Offering's Gather the Faithfull. Sounds very different. The music is softer, faster and a bit more... "DragonForce".
Ok, maybe not that far, but I think is a terrible mistake to think Jani has the Sonata sound. I wish there still was that video where they played "The Harvest" live, because it's too clear that the Sonata sound is how it is because Tony feels like making it be that way.

I think the Sonata sound is achieved by the composition, the vocals and the keyboards on the songs, just as I think happens with Stratovarius (Koti and Jens).

Compare My Dream's but a Drop of Fuel for a Nightmare with Deathaura, and Deathaura sounds much more to old school sonata and has a Reckoning Night feel to it. It even has a defined nice solo.

Then take a random fragment from The Vice (UNIA / Jani) and one from The Dead Skin (TDOG / Elias). You won't really find a significant difference there.

Blame Tony if you want, but blaming on Elias is not fair.

Rebel · Post by **Rebel** » Sat Aug 28, 2010 5:25 am

HinatAArcticA wrote:
Rebel wrote:So I finally realized the biggest reason for DoG sucking.
On the first 5 albums, Tony would write the music, but apparently Jani would just ignore Tony and heavily modify the guitar parts, adding his own flair in, whereas Elias went by the book with what Tony laid out. I think a combination of Tony getting lazy about guitar, and not being all too good at writing guitar parts in the first place led to the really unbalanced, fractured sound I hear on DoG. I think the band's sound really relied on Jani's changes.
Actually... I totally disagree...
UNIA has almost no solos. The cover song on the album, Out in the Fields has only keyboard solos. My Dream's But a Drop of Fuel for a Nightmare has no guitar solo at all.

The Days of Grays do lack guitar solos, but to blame on Elias for The Days of Grays being different is just not right. Tony is the mastermind of the band, so even when he does not compse the guitar solos, he does choose where in the songs are they supposed to be. That's why UNIA has not that many solos, nor The Days of Grays.

There's one song composed by Henkka in The Days of Grays, "Nothing More" which I posted in page 2 of this topic I think. The song has a guitar solo and a twin solo with the keys and the guitar.

How do I know Tony does not compose any solos? Because he won't even compose the keyboard solos either, and this is too obvious when listening to the solos in Silence next to the ones by Henkka in RN, UNIA and TDOG.

Blaming on Elias is just not right and not fair. The album lacks solos, I know and I would add some solos here and there, but Tony's idea for The Days of Grays was to build an album where the most important thing was the harmony, and it is. TDOG has an amazing harmony work.

I also failed to catch the "sonata sound" in Cain's Offering's Gather the Faithfull. Sounds very different. The music is softer, faster and a bit more... "DragonForce".
Ok, maybe not that far, but I think is a terrible mistake to think Jani has the Sonata sound. I wish there still was that video where they played "The Harvest" live, because it's too clear that the Sonata sound is how it is because Tony feels like making it be that way.

I think the Sonata sound is achieved by the composition, the vocals and the keyboards on the songs, just as I think happens with Stratovarius (Koti and Jens).

Take a random fragment from The Vice (UNIA / Jani) and one from The Dead Skin (TDOG / Elias). You won't really find a significant difference there.

Blame Tony if you want, but blaming on Elias is not fair.

I suppose you could call what I'm doing "Blaming", however, Elias is not nearly as good a guitarist as Jani, he does not bring the same flair to the band and his playing comes off as flat. Tony writes some great harmonies, but I'm starting to think that a lot of the melodies that made Sonata great came either directly from Jani, or were influenced/improved on by him.
Gather the Faithful was melodically brilliant, catchy, and energetic, and it didn't really care much for ultra-complex harmonies or layering. Days of Gray had great harmonies, but was completely devoid of interesting melodies. It was dark, even brooding, which I like in music, but without the melody, it's shit.

So I guess I blame Tony for not hiring a better guitar player.

HinatAArcticA · Post by **HinatAArcticA** » Sat Aug 28, 2010 5:30 am

Rebel wrote: Gather the Faithful was melodically brilliant, catchy, and energetic, and it didn't really care much for ultra-complex harmonies or layering. Days of Gray had great harmonies, but was completely devoid of interesting melodies. It was dark, even brooding, which I like in music, but without the melody, it's shit.

Then it's just a matter of taste. I didn't like Gather the Faithfull because they don't do anything I've listened befoere in Avantasia or even DragonForce, and I think that if it wasn't for Koti, the album would be just another power metal album added to the mix.

The album might be good, but I don't like it.
The thing is that it's very different to say "I don't like it" than saying "It sucks" because well,

I totally prefer TDOG over Gather the Faithfull over 9000 times.

icecab21 · Post by **icecab21** » Sat Aug 28, 2010 5:48 am

have you listened to elias solo cds? in concert he certainly performs anything jani did.

what do you mean without the melody? there are lots of vocal, keyboard, bass melodies on the cd

Rebel · Post by **Rebel** » Sat Aug 28, 2010 6:01 am

icecab21 wrote:have you listened to elias solo cds? in concert he certainly performs anything jani did.

what do you mean without the melody? there are lots of vocal, keyboard, bass melodies on the cd

Right, and Sonata is playing metal, which means guitar melodies are the most important.

icecab21 · Post by **icecab21** » Sat Aug 28, 2010 6:24 am

sonata arcitca is playing music, which means the music is most important. they have the symphonic disk that does not even have guitar on it.

Rebel · Post by **Rebel** » Sat Aug 28, 2010 6:51 am

icecab21 wrote:sonata arcitca is playing music, which means the music is most important. they have the symphonic disk that does not even have guitar on it.

And music is subjective blah de fucking blah. this is a forum, for the discussion of opinions, my opinion is that the album was shit, and unless you have a more interesting counterargument than "Well that just like... your opinion, man", please, keep it to yourself, you've made the same worthless point on every single band thread where anyone says they dislike something. But allow me to remind you that it is the contrast against the bad albums that makes good albums so enjoyable. If everything is objectively good because it is what the artist wanted, then "good" becomes a worthless term, and everything becomes quite dull

icecab21 · Post by **icecab21** » Sat Aug 28, 2010 7:02 am

Why do you keep listening to the album and posting the same opinion over and over and over in multiple threads now?

if you need guitar melodies, what on earth makes the rest of sonata arctica any better since, other from solo's , the guitar work is pretty much just rhythem section and playing the same thing the keyboards or vocals play

mayhem-for-all · Post by **mayhem-for-all** » Sat Aug 28, 2010 7:16 am

How do I know Tony does not compose any solos?

Or the you could simple read the interview where he says that himself...

HinatAArcticA · Post by **HinatAArcticA** » Sat Aug 28, 2010 9:56 am

Rebel wrote:Right, and Sonata is playing metal, which means guitar melodies are the most important.

Not really, SA's main soul has allways been the Keyboard, mainly because the mastermind is a keyboard player.

Ecliptica had a lot of guitar because of it's pure power metal nature. Silence balances it, in Winterheart's Guild, Keys just own the show. The Cage would not be The Cage without that intro. Reckoning Night is a balance again, but then Sonata stops making classic power metal, then high-speed solos are no longer needed, but the keyboard playing main harmonic parts on the songs have been since Ecliptica until TDOG. Fullmoon would never bee the same without the Keyboard intro. Tony has said it on interviews: Sonata's main sound, are the Keyboards.

It would be a mistake to say that the guitar is more important just because of Ecliptica. It's just one album among 6 they have.
It's just like Trinity. The songs have great solos and guitar work on them, but what everybody noticed, is the lack of good keys.

Sonata is not like Blind Guardian or Edguy (or even DragonForce) bands with two guitar players and with songs that just make the guitar be above everything else. Guitar based bands.

What I think is that fans overrate what Jani was in sonata. But imagine if Elias was the original SA guitar player. Nobody would ever blame the guitar player for the evolution of a band that is 95% Tony Kakko.

Tony has said it many times. He makes the songs and takes them to the band and they change almost nothing to the them, they just rehearse.

You know what's so boring about DragonForce?
All of their albums are the exact same thing over and over again.

I really don't understand why you say it sucks.

The band performance in the album is perfect, musically is very well done, and the songs have so many emotional deep parts, and the atmosphere is so intense and really transmits that feel of "death" that Tony worked on the album.

So, Is it to dark for you? Just because it has no catchy melodies? You need more solos to say an album is good? You need that a SA album has 10 songs at 180bpm with high vocal range? If those are your reasons, then you might be looking in the wrong place.

Tony said it: "I don't think of us as a power metal band" So if you are looking for grapes in a field of apple trees, then I don't know what you expected to happen, specially after UNIA and with Tony and Henkka saying over and over again in many websites and interviews: "The album is not a back to the rooths album" "The album is going to be very dark and with many slow songs"

Then I don't know what did you expect or what is your idea about this band.

Kosmo · Post by **Kosmo** » Sat Aug 28, 2010 10:25 am

I recall Tony saying that he actually didn't like to write fast songs, or atleast he did them last because he likes slow songs more. Or something along those lines.

I love TDoG, but i'm no music expert so i would easily miss something that ruins the album for more excperienced music lovers. And yes keyboards are the main essence in SA (hence why it's Sonata

).

Unia was generally more interesting though, in my opinion.

Fellow · Post by **Fellow** » Sat Sep 04, 2010 1:38 pm

I remember Tony saying somewhere he prefers to sing the slow ones over the fast ones.

Anywho. Elias vs Jani is a debate I hear very often in YouTube discussion videos. I think that they are both awesome guitar players (obviously - they've played in Sonata

), though they are quite different. Jani seems to be more, ah, 'shreddy', and might be able to play a bit faster than Elias (if that matters), but Elias makes some very interesting sounds with his guitar!

Listening to 'Nothing More' I could really see a difference in solo style between Elias and Jani. I can't quite explain it with words, but I can certainly hear it

. It is a change - not a bad one - and I welcome it! Both are very good, just different

.

And TDoG, well, I've said it before, but yes it is down to opinion. I can respect that you don't like it, Rebel, but there are many people that do! And where you say the melodies are "shit" I find them very catchy. I quite often have the melodies to the various songs stuck in my head

.

Also Rebel, I'm not sure what you mean in your last post exactly but surely, at the end of it all, what matters to the listener is that it sounds good. To me, it sounds good. To some, it doesn't!

I once heard the idea that if a man were to find the sound of an engine running musically enjoyable, who is anyone to tell him he's 'wrong' for liking it?

Also I agree with HinataArctica about the feel of 'death' on TDoG. I can really hear the sound of 'death' and 'coldness' in it; especially in songs like Everything Fades to Gray and Deathaura

Kosmo · Post by **Kosmo** » Sat Sep 04, 2010 2:35 pm

Death and getting older was the main subject in TDoG, it was actually originally going to be called Deathaura but changed because they thought it was too grim and not very Sonata-ish.

Susie · Post by **Susie** » Sun Sep 05, 2010 12:42 am

I hated Unia :yuk: (But i bought it anyways, 'cause I'm a loyal b***)

And TDoG put my heart in a blender :luv2: dunno if it's good or bad, but I liked it the first time I heard it, it was different...

Plus, they brought a girl over! So now I feel no guilt while singing along in the shower :viking:

Ps: Jani's so SA golden age and Elias is different. I can't compare them, I love what they both do :luv4:

PRIAPUS · Post by **PRIAPUS** » Sun Sep 05, 2010 1:33 am

If I may ejaculate-

Tony Cocko is one hell of a musician!
They should erect a monument in his honor.

-P :viking:

Kosmo · Post by **Kosmo** » Sun Sep 05, 2010 9:31 am

Yes a Tony monument in Kemi. :w00t:

Sonata should start to play a mix of grindcore and jazz. Agree, anyone?!

AGAG · Post by **AGAG** » Sun Sep 05, 2010 9:43 am

You can count me in

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