Stratovarius (2005)

[Motha-faka]

Backing to the main theme...
NOT JOKE, GUYS... TIMO TOLKKI DO AWESOME JOB IN STRATOVARIUS IN THE PAST IN PRODUCTION LEVEL

Demo vs Demo



wow, this sound very.... toy drums..... one midi drums sound better that this..... sorry guys but is that i feel

Timo tolkki demo black diamond



what the fuck!!!! I'm crazy or they have a huge difference including in the demos

Edit:

Additive drums and EZdrummer MIDI



what the fuck....... cant be true

[ZenithMC]

Demo vs Demo

That Fantasy isolated drums & bass track is not a demo. This is audio from a video Stratovarius posted on their FB page. You can hear audible compression artifacts from FB's re-encoding (and maybe also from being uploaded to YT as well, but YT has very good audio quality nowadays). It's not really the best source to compare production values to.

Now all of that said, yeah, the drum production on Nemesis is super dry sounding and the cymbals are flat. Some reverb would've went a long way in making that snare sound more powerful. With brighter EQ and a gentle wide Q cut around the 1kHz region for the cymbals, the album would have greater clarity. It's too bad, because I really love the way all of the other instruments were mixed on that album, especially the guitar.

[Motha-faka]

Demo vs Demo

That Fantasy isolated drums & bass track is not a demo. This is audio from a video Stratovarius posted on their FB page. You can hear audible compression artifacts from FB's re-encoding (and maybe also from being uploaded to YT as well, but YT has very good audio quality nowadays). It's not really the best source to compare production values to.

Now all of that said, yeah, the drum production on Nemesis is super dry sounding and the cymbals are flat. Some reverb would've went a long way in making that snare sound more powerful. With brighter EQ and a gentle wide Q cut around the 1kHz region for the cymbals, the album would have greater clarity. It's too bad, because I really love the way all of the other instruments were mixed on that album, especially the guitar.

What the fuck!! IS NOT A DEMO AND SOUND LIKE THIS? is a stratofans nightmare this

but we can see which is the problem... matias sucks mixing drums...... see his example



ALL THE DRUMS IN ONE SINGLE TRACK... THIS IS PURE SHIT ABOUT PRO PRODUCTIONS SPEAKING....

FOR MORE QUALITY THE DRUMS NEEDED SEPARATE TRACK IN TRACKS AND WORK WITH eq, cOMPRESSOR AND EFFECTS PARTS BY PARTS

this do Timo Tolkki and we know the results, marvellous drums

[ZenithMC]

ALL THE DRUMS IN ONE SINGLE TRACK... THIS IS PURE SHIT ABOUT PRO PRODUCTIONS SPEAKING....

Um... I'm not sure that's what's really going on here. It's possible that that is just a mix-down of the drums' tracks to a stereo track, or it's a track which all drum stems were routed to. I'm not familiar with Pro Tools, so I'm not sure what that would look like in that program, exactly. REAPER master race, okay?

Furthermore, let's actually entertain the thought that Matias mixes his drums all on a single stereo track. There's no way that he'd be able to make the bass drum that clicky without making every other element of the drum-set just as clicky (which would sound extremely bad, because no one wants their snare drum to sound clicky like a metal bass drum! Could you imagine what that would do to the cymbals? ) He had to have mixed each drum individually. It's the only way he could get that separation of EQ.

but we can see which is the problem... matias sucks mixing drums...... see his example

Man, I really hate having to bust Matias' balls over the drum production every time, but they are my genuine feelings about it and I'm going to have to agree here. I'd rather be honest than be a yes-man and tell him that the drums have the best production of all time, or something like that.

[Motha-faka]

ALL THE DRUMS IN ONE SINGLE TRACK... THIS IS PURE SHIT ABOUT PRO PRODUCTIONS SPEAKING....

Um... I'm not sure that's what's really going on here. It's possible that that is just a mix-down of the drums' tracks to a stereo track, or it's a track which all drum stems were routed to. I'm not familiar with Pro Tools, so I'm not sure what that would look like in that program, exactly. REAPER master race, okay?

Furthermore, let's actually entertain the thought that Matias mixes his drums all on a single stereo track. There's no way that he'd be able to make the bass drum that clicky without making every other element of the drum-set just as clicky (which would sound extremely bad, because no one wants their snare drum to sound clicky like a metal bass drum! Could you imagine what that would do to the cymbals? ) He had to have mixed each drum individually. It's the only way he could get that separation of EQ.

but we can see which is the problem... matias sucks mixing drums...... see his example

Man, I really hate having to bust Matias' balls over the drum production every time, but they are my genuine feelings about it and I'm going to have to agree here. I'd rather be honest than be a yes-man and tell him that the drums have the best production of all time, or something like that.

well, but we will agree that Eternal drums sound to shit too

timo tolkki said to Robocop that he mix track by track in a huge mix session in pro tools, that I do the same.... and sometime he had 24 tracks of drums...that i do the same.

sometime I remember to jens talk about matias mistakes in facebook about Mix, and is strange that nobody in the bands tell him that the Drums sound to shit?, dear gosh, they are pro and had monster drummer like jorg michael in timo tolkki hands!!

the most epic drum that i never listen in my life

[ZenithMC]

sometime I remember to jens talk about matias mistakes in facebook about Mix, and is strange that nobody in the bands tell him that the Drums sound to shit?, dear gosh, they are pro and had monster drummer like jorg michael in timo tolkki hands!!

Interesting. Jens has talked about Matias' production somewhere? Do you have a link? As for the other members, there exists two possibilities:
1. They are perfectly content with Matias' drum production.
2. They realize that there is room for improvement, but they aren't picky as hell like we are.

[Motha-faka]

sometime I remember to jens talk about matias mistakes in facebook about Mix, and is strange that nobody in the bands tell him that the Drums sound to shit?, dear gosh, they are pro and had monster drummer like jorg michael in timo tolkki hands!!

Interesting. Jens has talked about Matias' production somewhere? Do you have a link? As for the other members, there exists two possibilities:
1. They are perfectly content with Matias' drum production.
2. They realize that there is room for improvement, but they aren't picky as hell like we are.

jens only opine that in matias mix sometimes he don't listen some instruments, not more that this

dear gosh, if the band are happy with the drum mix, they have a potato in his ears!! not after listen albums like elements, Infinite or visions for example

[ZenithMC]

jens only opine that in matias mix sometimes he don't listen some instruments, not more that this

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Who isn't listening to some instruments? Jens? Matias?

Here's another English lesson: use 'than' for comparisons, not 'that'. I see this mistake very commonly amongst native Spanish speakers and it leads me to believe that in Spanish, one uses the Spanish translation of 'that' for comparisons, but I'm not sure if there is any credence to my inference. I mean, it could also just be a very common typo.

dear gosh, if the band are happy with the drum mix, they have a potato in his ears!!

[Motha-faka]

jens only opine that in matias mix sometimes he don't listen some instruments, not more that this

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Who isn't listening to some instruments? Jens? Matias?

Here's another English lesson: use 'than' for comparisons, not 'that'. I see this mistake very commonly amongst native Spanish speakers and it leads me to believe that in Spanish, one uses the Spanish translation of 'that' for comparisons, but I'm not sure if there is any credence to my inference. I mean, it could also just be a very common typo.

dear gosh, if the band are happy with the drum mix, they have a potato in his ears!!

thanks for the new english tip

I mean that Jens sometime tell to matias that in his mix, he can't listen some instruments, I think that in the mix time, all the band opine about the studio job.

[Motha-faka]

More Strange stuff of matias kupiainen...

tom track in other track...

complete drums in one track...

HO drums in other track... this is fine... you can see it in the track list of left column in pro tools, but you need a huge vision, eagle one....

2 or 3 bounces... maybe one of these bounces are the Drums

sadly the drums sound to shit in this track too

[Motha-faka]

yep yep.... I discover with the zoom camera... that matias edit all the drums, put it into a group in pro tools and after he do the video...

is a taste of matias, I think, MAYBE mATIAS LOVES THE DRY DRUMS, NOT LIKE TIMO TOLKKI ERA, SO GLORIOUS DRUMS WITH JORG MICHAEL

my additive drums sound better....

seee this picture

[Motha-faka]

ok... to be short the question... I read the more stuff about timo tolkki production....

I'm against to use samples to the drums... this is like fuck off to the drummer. but one skilled guy can do the same powerful stuff using Compressors, EQ and Effects. I did it before and sound powerful as well.

is question of use cool the pro tools only

[ZenithMC]

I'm against to use samples to the drums... this is like fuck off to the drummer. but one skilled guy can do the same powerful stuff using Compressors, EQ and Effects. I did it before and sound powerful as well.

For slower songs, I can totally envision no use of drum samples. The drummer should have an easy time hitting the snare & toms with a consistent velocity. However, if recording a >180bpm power metal track, you'll find that the bass drum velocity significantly diminishes (maybe even the snare, on occasion). In fact, the faster the drummer plays, the less velocity/power they can muster per note. This is why I find it best to blend samples in with the recorded drums.

You should think about the album from the perspective of the producer. Sometimes, it is necessary to erode the musician's artistic integrity in order to achieve a desirable effect in the studio. For me, I love consistency & power for drums, so I'll use whatever cards up my sleeve as necessary to procure that sound. I know that some fans like to bitch and complain when they learn that the drums don't just "sound like that naturally" (believe me, there are people who think there's a drum-set out there that sounds like Episode's drums... ), but let's be honest: just about every power metal album they've ever listened to has been meticulously engineered to hell and back. It is not "raw" nor "natural" in any way. If they want that sort of vibe, they can go listen to Fright Night for the next hundred years. I prefer the sound of Episode, myself, and it is about as far removed from "natural" as it gets.

[Motha-faka]

I'm against to use samples to the drums... this is like fuck off to the drummer. but one skilled guy can do the same powerful stuff using Compressors, EQ and Effects. I did it before and sound powerful as well.

For slower songs, I can totally envision no use of drum samples. The drummer should have an easy time hitting the snare & toms with a consistent velocity. However, if recording a >180bpm power metal track, you'll find that the bass drum velocity significantly diminishes (maybe even the snare, on occasion). In fact, the faster the drummer plays, the less velocity/power they can muster per note. This is why I find it best to blend samples in with the recorded drums.

You should think about the album from the perspective of the producer. Sometimes, it is necessary to erode the musician's artistic integrity in order to achieve a desirable effect in the studio. For me, I love consistency & power for drums, so I'll use whatever cards up my sleeve as necessary to procure that sound. I know that some fans like to bitch and complain when they learn that the drums don't just "sound like that naturally" (believe me, there are people who think there's a drum-set out there that sounds like Episode's drums... ), but let's be honest: just about every power metal album they've ever listened to has been meticulously engineered to hell and back. It is not "raw" nor "natural" in any way. If they want that sort of vibe, they can go listen to Fright Night for the next hundred years. I prefer the sound of Episode, myself, and it is about as far removed from "natural" as it gets.

Bro, is all Pro tools trcks! for speed songs you can cut effects using a gate!, is not so hard!

I mix songs mixings 55 tracks, 5 minutes duration, using than i'm explain you and not sound bad.

Stratovarius use effects in the same moments to record the track I bet! the only stuff that you need to adjust in multitrack is the drums only

is all Engineering skills! the most hard part is the record session, after is not so hard

See the matias kupiainen video, he put all his effects and stuff in buss in pro tools, i bet that mix one stratovarius song is not so hard, if he do all heavy stuff in recording session!

happen that we don't have a pro band, Zenith! we need to fight with midi sequences all the time, and is more complex in mix session this!

[ZenithMC]

I can't tell what you're trying to say to me. I wish I did, though. From what I can understand, it sounds like you're disagreeing with what I said or something, but I agreed with you before, so now I'm confused.

I guess I'll just reiterate what I said in a concise manner. Yes, it is very possible to get a great sound using only effects and no samples, but it is much harder to record very fast-paced drums with consistent attack/velocity/power, so samples can be used to augment the sound. It comes down to taste, really.

Now, I'm very confused about this in particular:

Bro, is all Pro tools trcks! for speed songs you can cut effects using a gate!, is not so hard!

Why would you use a gate to "cut effects"? I use a gate when I record a full drum set so that each individual drum note is isolated. If the amplitude of the surrounding drums is below a certain threshold, then the channel is muted. Once the drum of interest is played, its amplitude is above the threshold and is thusly sounded. Makes a world of difference as far as clarity is concerned.

Furthermore, how does this fix the problem of the drummer putting less energy into, say, a constant stream of 16th note bass drum notes (which results in less attack & velocity in the recorded bass drum) verses bass drum notes on only the 1's and 3's of the measure, at the same tempo? (where the attack & velocity will be far greater) The sonic characteristics of those two scenarios is far too different for the same EQ and other effects to produce an equivalent result between them. (so a compressor, while fixing the disparity of levels, will not fix the actual sonic differences) This is why I find samples useful. It picks up the slack for the moments where speed must be prioritized over power.

happen that we don't have a pro band, Zenith! we need to fight with midi sequences all the time, and is more complex in mix session this!

I recorded my drum-set myself (me actually playing, not a MIDI sequence) for my album. I think I ended up using 14 mic channels. What I said is based mostly on my own experience. It's possible that I'm a shitty player though and others are capable of maintaining both speed & power during fast sections. I don't know!

[Motha-faka]

I can't tell what you're trying to say to me. I wish I did, though. From what I can understand, it sounds like you're disagreeing with what I said or something, but I agreed with you before, so now I'm confused.

I guess I'll just reiterate what I said in a concise manner. Yes, it is very possible to get a great sound using only effects and no samples, but it is much harder to record very fast-paced drums with consistent attack/velocity/power, so samples can be used to augment the sound. It comes down to taste, really.

Now, I'm very confused about this in particular:

Bro, is all Pro tools trcks! for speed songs you can cut effects using a gate!, is not so hard!

Why would you use a gate to "cut effects"? I use a gate when I record a full drum set so that each individual drum note is isolated. If the amplitude of the surrounding drums is below a certain threshold, then the channel is muted. Once the drum of interest is played, its amplitude is above the threshold and is thusly sounded. Makes a world of difference as far as clarity is concerned.

Furthermore, how does this fix the problem of the drummer putting less energy into, say, a constant stream of 16th note bass drum notes (which results in less attack & velocity in the recorded bass drum) verses bass drum notes on only the 1's and 3's of the measure, at the same tempo? (where the attack & velocity will be far greater) The sonic characteristics of those two scenarios is far too different for the same EQ and other effects to produce an equivalent result between them. (so a compressor, while fixing the disparity of levels, will not fix the actual sonic differences) This is why I find samples useful. It picks up the slack for the moments where speed must be prioritized over power.

happen that we don't have a pro band, Zenith! we need to fight with midi sequences all the time, and is more complex in mix session this!

I recorded my drum-set myself (me actually playing, not a MIDI sequence) for my album. I think I ended up using 14 mic channels. What I said is based mostly on my own experience. It's possible that I'm a shitty player though and others are capable of maintaining both speed & power during fast sections. I don't know!

holy shit, im a fucking disaster in english!

the gate works good in make more hard effects and cut noises in the drums as you said

I have the Queen tracks and all come with effects, in the mix is only add some EQ and compressors and all ok

anyway i'm not a great recording producer, i'm mostly mix and mastering....

I said, one huge band like Stratovarius the most heavy work is in recording session, and mixing session and mastering session are more Light, why pro musicians have his final sound from the begins.

You will mix tracks 80% finished. About your drums, is question of edition in your sequencer... if you do a weak drums you can edit it... this is not hard, but you need make a drums track by track.... I mean, snare track, tom track, hi hat track....

I tell you, the most heavy work is be a recording engineer, mix engineer work and mastering engineer work are more light

shit... you speak spanish?, this can be more easy to me

[ZenithMC]

shit... you speak spanish?, this can be more easy to me

I don't speak Spanish. You can post in Spanish & English and I can use Google translate or something. Might help me understand better.

About your drums, is question of edition in your sequencer... if you do a weak drums you can edit it... this is not hard, but you need make a drums track by track.... I mean, snare track, tom track, hi hat track....

I don't use MIDI for drums. I record my live performance. Of course, I use MIDI for the drums on the demos. For the final product, I mic each drum individually & mix them individually. 2 mics on snare (top & bottom; opposite polarity), 1 on 10" tom, 1 on 12" tom, 1 on 14" tom, 1 on 16" tom, 1 on gong bass, 2 for bass drums (1 for each bass drum), 2 for overheads (really the crash & splash cymbal mic group), 1 for hi-hats, 1 for ride cymbal, and 1 for china cymbal. Dynamic mics for the drums; condenser mics for the cymbals (except for the china, as I ran out of condenser mics).

I said, one huge band like Stratovarius the most heavy work is in recording session, and mixing session and mastering session are more Light, why pro musicians have his final sound from the begins.

You will mix tracks 80% finished.

You are right about this. With the right preparation (good room w/ good acoustics & properly tuned instruments), a lot of work is already done before the mixing phase even starts. Of course, it really depends on what you want to achieve. If you want a heavily processed super powerful sounding drum production, a lot of work is still required. If you want a more subtle approach to the drum production, you don't need to do so much work.

I focus so much on the drums because I find that to be the instrument that needs to be tinkered with the most in order to get a great sound. It's also the most complicated instrument to record, due to needing so many mics all in close proximity. A lot can go wrong if you aren't careful with mic placement (If you reposition something, check the phase!!)

For other instruments, you're right. It's really as simple as tune up the guitar, make sure it's properly intonated, yada yada... play with the amp settings until you find something you really like, place your mic almost touching the grill of the cabinet & offset from the cone somewhat, and that tone is basically already perfect. It might need some subtle EQ during the mixing phase, but don't do anything too drastic. If it needs a lot of EQ, fix it at the source, not in post. Blah blah blah...

[Motha-faka]

shit... you speak spanish?, this can be more easy to me

I don't speak Spanish. You can post in Spanish & English and I can use Google translate or something. Might help me understand better.

About your drums, is question of edition in your sequencer... if you do a weak drums you can edit it... this is not hard, but you need make a drums track by track.... I mean, snare track, tom track, hi hat track....

I don't use MIDI for drums. I record my live performance. Of course, I use MIDI for the drums on the demos. For the final product, I mic each drum individually & mix them individually. 2 mics on snare (top & bottom; opposite polarity), 1 on 10" tom, 1 on 12" tom, 1 on 14" tom, 1 on 16" tom, 1 on gong bass, 2 for bass drums (1 for each bass drum), 2 for overheads (really the crash & splash cymbal mic group), 1 for hi-hats, 1 for ride cymbal, and 1 for china cymbal. Dynamic mics for the drums; condenser mics for the cymbals (except for the china, as I ran out of condenser mics).

I said, one huge band like Stratovarius the most heavy work is in recording session, and mixing session and mastering session are more Light, why pro musicians have his final sound from the begins.

You will mix tracks 80% finished.

You are right about this. With the right preparation (good room w/ good acoustics & properly tuned instruments), a lot of work is already done before the mixing phase even starts. Of course, it really depends on what you want to achieve. If you want a heavily processed super powerful sounding drum production, a lot of work is still required. If you want a more subtle approach to the drum production, you don't need to do so much work.

I focus so much on the drums because I find that to be the instrument that needs to be tinkered with the most in order to get a great sound. It's also the most complicated instrument to record, due to needing so many mics all in close proximity. A lot can go wrong if you aren't careful with mic placement (If you reposition something, check the phase!!)

For other instruments, you're right. It's really as simple as tune up the guitar, make sure it's properly intonated, yada yada... play with the amp settings until you find something you really like, place your mic almost touching the grill of the cabinet & offset from the cone somewhat, and that tone is basically already perfect. It might need some subtle EQ during the mixing phase, but don't do anything too drastic. If it needs a lot of EQ, fix it at the source, not in post. Blah blah blah...

you see, zenith, I'm not so bad in English... Now my EGO will Explode!!

[robocop]

FLAVIOOOO!!! I never used every drum VST. But did use superior drummer and EZ drummer, which I use with my Alesis strike pro kit. DRUMKIT FROM HELL. I can dial down the compression and shit...make the snare gated. It's a lot less costly for me instead of investing in tons of other recording gear.

[Motha-faka]

FLAVIOOOO!!! I never used every drum VST. But did use superior drummer and EZ drummer, which I use with my Alesis strike pro kit. DRUMKIT FROM HELL. I can dial down the compression and shit...make the snare gated. It's a lot less costly for me instead of investing in tons of other recording gear.

well, thats ok, i thinkthat the only one that use midi is jens johansson with his keyboard controller. you are not alone, Bro

[Motha-faka]

Holy cow!... with samples off, jorg michael is epic!! Learning to fly demo......



with the correct editions, rolf can be the second jorg michael, really, is not so hard!!!

[robocop]

Hey bro. You should hear Zenith’s own homemade bass drum and snare samples I have.

[Motha-faka]

Hey bro. You should hear Zenith’s own homemade bass drum and snare samples I have.

no, you can share?

[ZenithMC]

Holy cow!... with samples off, jorg michael is epic!! Learning to fly demo......

Hard to say if samples were used here or not. If nothing else, definitely the standard trio of EQ, compression, & reverb. The bass drum does sound somewhat natural though (less clicky than usual, maybe even more woofy (more lower mid-range presence than usual)). The toms & snare sound completely processed. I cannot state this enough: reverb makes a huge difference in the perceived power of the snare.

[Motha-faka]

Holy cow!... with samples off, jorg michael is epic!! Learning to fly demo......

Hard to say if samples were used here or not. If nothing else, definitely the standard trio of EQ, compression, & reverb. The bass drum does sound somewhat natural though (less clicky than usual, maybe even more woofy (more lower mid-range presence than usual)). The toms & snare sound completely processed. I cannot state this enough: reverb makes a huge difference in the perceived power of the snare.

I read a lot about timo tolkki and his drums process... he is extreme one and i can told that is possible make a drums sound like this... I will post other video, jorg michael is really hard drummer.

I convert a midi file in a power massive drums in the past using like base, additive drums and edit it track by track as a real drums.

my experience and my tendence of break rules tell me that is very possible, and i know how timo tolkki do it in pro tools...

to do this, is necessary fuck out all the school lessons and take some risk ... but is possible!!



jorg michael is a monster, but sadly, the productions kill part of his hit as drummer, Matias not take risk and this kill the drummer, timo tolkki is more extreme as producer

i insist, is possible make rolf pilve the second jorg michael with the correct production in the mix, is not necessary copy to tolkki in recording sessions.

[robocop]

Hey bro. You should hear Zenith’s own homemade bass drum and snare samples I have.

no, you can share?

https://file.io/KtmHhDezdR9Q

[Motha-faka]

Phoenix - Raw demo mix.... basically this is the most raw demo of stratovarius

you can see how sound Jorg Michael without studio trick, including more raw and direct than Live shows

we are listen one record without EQ in the session

[robocop]

I have your ideal drum sound, Flavio. Don't pay attention to the band name, this is for the isolated drum example.

[ZenithMC]

I have your ideal drum sound, Flavio. Don't pay attention to the band name, this is for the isolated drum example.

LMAO!

Did they scoop the mids for the drums too?

[robocop]

Legend has it that Vinny called up Flavio age 10 then for his drum expertise. And also to know which street the hookers were on when he tours in Argentina again.