Your favorite drum/guitar/etc production

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robocop
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Your favorite drum/guitar/etc production

Post by robocop » Mon Jan 25, 2021 4:13 pm

Hello friends and foes. Please tell us your favorite productions on albums. This post will be about my favorite snare drum sounds. Well...a few at least.

Guthrie Govan - snare from erotic cakes



Rotten Sound with Kai (Kumu drums. Always dreamed of that snare.)



Exodus live album



I’m half asleep and need to think of more. :eyes

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AAAAAAAAAA
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Re: Your favorite drum/guitar/etc production

Post by AAAAAAAAAA » Tue Jan 26, 2021 4:48 am

Haha- if you want anyone to see your thread just put it in General Discussion or Other.

The good
As far as production goes, I like all the recent works from Threshold- especially Dead Reckoning, Hypothetical, Critical Mass. They are crystal clear and the songwriting / vocals are also spectacular.

Everything from Steven Wilson / Porcupine Tree is really good. Though I find the music too emotional and sappy- I can't deny the production is excellent, almost like a gold standard.

Similarly, Arjen Lucassen (Ayreon, etc) is a very gifted producer and everything he touches turns to gold.

I also have to give the nod to Stratovarius for Infinite, Elements, and to a lesser extent, Visions & Episode.

The bad
Some albums I've listened to over the years that I think have terrible production:
- Anything from Danzig beyond the first four is absolute garbage- a hilarious experiment of everything NOT to do, that has dragged on for 20+ years. To give a concrete example consider the Deth Red Sabaoth album.
- Various Royal Hunt albums (X, Collision Course, Paper Blood) that sound overly warm. Andre Andersen seems to fetishize 70s vinyl songs for some reason
- Some of Andre Matos' solo albums (Mentalize, for example- has one of the worst snare sounds I have ever heard. The debut solo album is OK).
- While far from a disaster, I don't like some Rhapsody albums' production- like "Frozen Tears of Angels", and "From Chaos to Eternity".
- Mr. Big's "What If" album. WHY!!!! It sounds nothing like their classic ones from the 90s. Kind of a "live" vibe.

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Re: Your favorite drum/guitar/etc production

Post by robocop » Tue Jan 26, 2021 7:13 am

Danzig!! LOL!
I heard threshold before. Really good.
Like any Symphony X production? I know you mentioned you haven't heard newer ones. Iconoclast kicks a punch to my balls. I wish I knew the secrets to do anything remotely as heavy sounding. =P

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Re: Your favorite drum/guitar/etc production

Post by Ludwig Van Beethoven » Wed Jan 27, 2021 1:52 am

Best drum production ever: Systematic Chaos by Dream Theater
Best overall production effort: Black Album by Metallica
Best sounding record: Elements pt.1 (by far)


If we're talking about Stratovarius alone:

Top 3:
- Elements pt.1
- Episode/Visions
- Nemesis

Last 3:
- Fright Night
- Fourth Dimension
- Elysium (I cannot stand the kick samples, other instruments are excellent)

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Re: Your favorite drum/guitar/etc production

Post by robocop » Wed Jan 27, 2021 8:35 am

Ahhhh!!
I just got AMAZON MUSIC HD. They have ultra HD strato albums and such!! I was going to buy albums from prostudiomasters or HDTRACKS. I decided to try the HD Amazon. Really nice hearing NEMESIS IN ULTRA HD. BUT WHAT BITRATE IS ULTRA HD??! LOL.

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Re: Your favorite drum/guitar/etc production

Post by ZenithMC » Wed Jan 27, 2021 9:47 am

robocop wrote:
Wed Jan 27, 2021 8:35 am
Ahhhh!!
I just got AMAZON MUSIC HD. They have ultra HD strato albums and such!! I was going to buy albums from prostudiomasters or HDTRACKS. I decided to try the HD Amazon. Really nice hearing NEMESIS IN ULTRA HD. BUT WHAT BITRATE IS ULTRA HD??! LOL.
Hmm... My presumption is that it won't sound any different. Anything beyond the redbook standard (dual 16-bit 44100Hz waveforms) is superfluous for human listeners. Bit depth determines the signal to noise ratio (for redbook, it is 96.33 dB) & sample rate determines the Nyquist frequency (for redbook, it is 22050Hz). Any sounds above the Nyquist frequency are subject to aliasing, so they are eliminated with a low pass filter.

96.33 dB of range with a maximum frequency response of 22050Hz is more than enough (human range is roughly from 20hz to 20kHz). Any sound below -70 dB will more than likely be noise anyway, due to analogue equipment introducing it during the production of the album (or even during the DAC conversion for playback). Any 16-bit integer sound source around -96 dB will be subjected to quantization error & will sound distorted if dithering is not applied during mixdown (from floating-point to integer format).

I just noticed that Eternal appears to have no dithering. :? Not that it matters all that much. The only way to hear the distortion is to crank your speakers to max volume during a fade out/fade in.

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Re: Your favorite drum/guitar/etc production

Post by AAAAAAAAAA » Wed Jan 27, 2021 10:36 am

robocop wrote:
Tue Jan 26, 2021 7:13 am
Danzig!! LOL!
I heard threshold before. Really good.
Like any Symphony X production? I know you mentioned you haven't heard newer ones. Iconoclast kicks a punch to my balls. I wish I knew the secrets to do anything remotely as heavy sounding. =P
I have heard the last two, but I didn't play them much because I couldn't get into their heavier and more modern sound. Paradise Lost was the last one I really enjoyed, but the others aren't bad or anything, just a matter of taste.

From what I remember the production of almost all symphony x albums is really good. Bear in mind I know very little about the technicalities. :oops:

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Re: Your favorite drum/guitar/etc production

Post by Motha-faka » Wed Jan 27, 2021 2:25 pm

Dear stratokiddos, listening to stratovarius in HD from amazon HD is only losing your money, because you are not going to distinguish the difference between HD 96000hz 24 bits, for example to 44100 16bits, Human beings are not like dogs. If the format was recorded and the download was done at 44100 16 bits, raising the quality only adds noise to compensate for the high bit rate.

Do not get hot with the "Stratovarius in HD from Amazon HD because, the same happened with Pink Floyd HD, it was sold at 96000 hz at 24 bits and nobody noticed the difference, the fans only bought with their eyes more than with their ears. :err:

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Re: Your favorite drum/guitar/etc production

Post by NeverendingAbyss » Wed Jan 27, 2021 4:05 pm

Motha-faka wrote:
Wed Jan 27, 2021 2:25 pm
Dear stratokiddos, listening to stratovarius in HD from amazon HD is only losing your money, because you are not going to distinguish the difference between HD 96000hz 24 bits, for example to 44100 16bits, Human beings are not like dogs. If the format was recorded and the download was done at 44100 16 bits, raising the quality only adds noise to compensate for the high bit rate.

Do not get hot with the "Stratovarius in HD from Amazon HD because, the same happened with Pink Floyd HD, it was sold at 96000 hz at 24 bits and nobody noticed the difference, the fans only bought with their eyes more than with their ears. :err:
That's right! I only listen to Stratovarius karaokes for my morning routine.
What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little bitch?!

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Ludwig Van Beethoven
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Re: Your favorite drum/guitar/etc production

Post by Ludwig Van Beethoven » Wed Jan 27, 2021 4:39 pm

NeverendingAbyss wrote:
Wed Jan 27, 2021 4:05 pm
Motha-faka wrote:
Wed Jan 27, 2021 2:25 pm
Dear stratokiddos, listening to stratovarius in HD from amazon HD is only losing your money, because you are not going to distinguish the difference between HD 96000hz 24 bits, for example to 44100 16bits, Human beings are not like dogs. If the format was recorded and the download was done at 44100 16 bits, raising the quality only adds noise to compensate for the high bit rate.

Do not get hot with the "Stratovarius in HD from Amazon HD because, the same happened with Pink Floyd HD, it was sold at 96000 hz at 24 bits and nobody noticed the difference, the fans only bought with their eyes more than with their ears. :err:
That's right! I only listen to Stratovarius karaokes for my morning routine.
Me too, with my shitty PS4 mono earbud

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Re: Your favorite drum/guitar/etc production

Post by robocop » Wed Jan 27, 2021 5:37 pm

ZenithMC wrote:
Wed Jan 27, 2021 9:47 am
robocop wrote:
Wed Jan 27, 2021 8:35 am
Ahhhh!!
I just got AMAZON MUSIC HD. They have ultra HD strato albums and such!! I was going to buy albums from prostudiomasters or HDTRACKS. I decided to try the HD Amazon. Really nice hearing NEMESIS IN ULTRA HD. BUT WHAT BITRATE IS ULTRA HD??! LOL.
Hmm... My presumption is that it won't sound any different. Anything beyond the redbook standard (dual 16-bit 44100Hz waveforms) is superfluous for human listeners. Bit depth determines the signal to noise ratio (for redbook, it is 96.33 dB) & sample rate determines the Nyquist frequency (for redbook, it is 22050Hz). Any sounds above the Nyquist frequency are subject to aliasing, so they are eliminated with a low pass filter.

96.33 dB of range with a maximum frequency response of 22050Hz is more than enough (human range is roughly from 20hz to 20kHz). Any sound below -70 dB will more than likely be noise anyway, due to analogue equipment introducing it during the production of the album (or even during the DAC conversion for playback). Any 16-bit integer sound source around -96 dB will be subjected to quantization error & will sound distorted if dithering is not applied during mixdown (from floating-point to integer format).

I just noticed that Eternal appears to have no dithering. :? Not that it matters all that much. The only way to hear the distortion is to crank your speakers to max volume during a fade out/fade in.
What Amazon music HD uses is FLAC. Max is 24 bit/192 hz. Tidal has “master” quality they say. Using 24bit / 96kHz AAC, ALAC, FLAC. There’s deezer hifi and qobuz that uses similar stuff. Qobuz even uses wav I read. Anyway, I don’t understand it all but am using this as an alternative to buying CDs and ripping them. Even if the human ear can’t perceive the shit. It’s a selling point and I took the bait.
Motha-faka wrote:
Wed Jan 27, 2021 2:25 pm
Dear stratokiddos, listening to stratovarius in HD from amazon HD is only losing your money, because you are not going to distinguish the difference between HD 96000hz 24 bits, for example to 44100 16bits, Human beings are not like dogs. If the format was recorded and the download was done at 44100 16 bits, raising the quality only adds noise to compensate for the high bit rate.

Do not get hot with the "Stratovarius in HD from Amazon HD because, the same happened with Pink Floyd HD, it was sold at 96000 hz at 24 bits and nobody noticed the difference, the fans only bought with their eyes more than with their ears. :err:
Yes...
I bought into the hype. Except I wanted to test my setup with the highest quality I could get. I get that it’s just going to also take up more bandwidth, and it’s just a meme basically where we won’t be able to hear the difference. It’s the hype that counts. It made me happy for a moment and that’s all that mattered to me.

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Re: Your favorite drum/guitar/etc production

Post by ZenithMC » Wed Jan 27, 2021 7:17 pm

robocop wrote:
Wed Jan 27, 2021 5:37 pm
Yes...
I bought into the hype. Except I wanted to test my setup with the highest quality I could get. I get that it’s just going to also take up more bandwidth, and it’s just a meme basically where we won’t be able to hear the difference. It’s the hype that counts. It made me happy for a moment and that’s all that mattered to me.
Can't say I relate but, indeed, if you're happy that's all that matters. :bigok: I'm glad you know it's a big meme, at least, as there are far too many people who aren't aware of that. Probably the same people who claim they can hear the difference between wav and aiff... Oof. :roll:

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Re: Your favorite drum/guitar/etc production

Post by robocop » Wed Jan 27, 2021 10:07 pm

Well.. I'll admit I thought they had master's quality. But now I hear from everybody it is just a meme so hahahah. Oh well. I got a discount.
Ludwig Van Beethoven wrote:
Wed Jan 27, 2021 1:52 am
Best drum production ever: Systematic Chaos by Dream Theater
Best overall production effort: Black Album by Metallica
Best sounding record: Elements pt.1 (by far)


If we're talking about Stratovarius alone:

Top 3:
- Elements pt.1
- Episode/Visions
- Nemesis

Last 3:
- Fright Night
- Fourth Dimension
- Elysium (I cannot stand the kick samples, other instruments are excellent)
So you like natural sounding kicks and such? I checked out the DT drums you mentioned and heard that.
AAAAAAAAAA wrote:
Wed Jan 27, 2021 10:36 am
robocop wrote:
Tue Jan 26, 2021 7:13 am
Danzig!! LOL!
I heard threshold before. Really good.
Like any Symphony X production? I know you mentioned you haven't heard newer ones. Iconoclast kicks a punch to my balls. I wish I knew the secrets to do anything remotely as heavy sounding. =P
I have heard the last two, but I didn't play them much because I couldn't get into their heavier and more modern sound. Paradise Lost was the last one I really enjoyed, but the others aren't bad or anything, just a matter of taste.

From what I remember the production of almost all symphony x albums is really good. Bear in mind I know very little about the technicalities. :oops:
There's a track on iconoclast in the old style.


So you don't like heavier music? Shame...like life we need to listen to dynamic music. But that's just me and my damaged brain talking. :lol:

The older albums production could use more power imho. Like strato production of the 90s. And the guitar tone, well not bad..it just is different. Don't know the tone details. Signature Romeo sound. Ever hear his newest solo album? Sounds like he's soundtrack composer pretty much added in. Guitar tone in later recent albums is different.

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Re: Your favorite drum/guitar/etc production

Post by Motha-faka » Wed Jan 27, 2021 11:32 pm

I myself was testing the Infinite recordings on my studio monitors and then I tested Eternal. :err:

What I found that the sound of Infinite has the bass too high, I used it as a guide for my karaoke, and gory of the world sounds extremely high jari kanulainen, I do not know how they did not screw up the mix as high as it is, I put it high but moderate, I'm scared to shit the mix I made :?

Then I analyzed Eternal in their song My eternal dream, it's a fucking disaster, I don't know if it was the mixing or the mastering, but it doesn't seem like stratovarius, nor that they had the giant studio that they have, someone sent a huge shit with the sound :err:

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Re: Your favorite drum/guitar/etc production

Post by AAAAAAAAAA » Thu Jan 28, 2021 1:14 am

robocop wrote:
Wed Jan 27, 2021 10:07 pm

So you don't like heavier music? Shame...like life we need to listen to dynamic music. But that's just me and my damaged brain talking. :lol:

The older albums production could use more power imho. Like strato production of the 90s. And the guitar tone, well not bad..it just is different. Don't know the tone details. Signature Romeo sound. Ever hear his newest solo album? Sounds like he's soundtrack composer pretty much added in. Guitar tone in later recent albums is different.
I do occasionally listen to heavier music. In the case of the last symphony x album, it's not just that it's heavier but that it sounds like generic modern metal. there are some good songs but also some filler songs in my opinion.

I really dig the orchestral stuff they did with twilight in Olympus, V, etc, maybe I'm just being nostalgic because I was a teenager when I discovered those albums.

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Re: Your favorite drum/guitar/etc production

Post by AAAAAAAAAA » Thu Jan 28, 2021 5:01 am

Motha-faka wrote:
Wed Jan 27, 2021 11:32 pm
Then I analyzed Eternal in their song My eternal dream, it's a fucking disaster, I don't know if it was the mixing or the mastering, but it doesn't seem like stratovarius, nor that they had the giant studio that they have, someone sent a huge shit with the sound :err:
Dear Mr. Ontivero,

I urge you to continue to be vocal and outspoken in your criticism of the band's production. Be unrelenting and continue to spread your thoughts everywhere you can including facebook, and other social media. If you manage to get enough attention, perhaps you will be selected to participate in the production process of the next album and we will finally get the huge powerful sound we have been yearning for. My confidence in you is unwavering.

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Re: Your favorite drum/guitar/etc production

Post by ZenithMC » Thu Jan 28, 2021 5:30 am

AAAAAAAAAA wrote:
Thu Jan 28, 2021 5:01 am
Motha-faka wrote:
Wed Jan 27, 2021 11:32 pm
Then I analyzed Eternal in their song My eternal dream, it's a fucking disaster, I don't know if it was the mixing or the mastering, but it doesn't seem like stratovarius, nor that they had the giant studio that they have, someone sent a huge shit with the sound :err:
Dear Mr. Ontivero,

I urge you to continue to be vocal and outspoken in your criticism of the band's production. Be unrelenting and continue to spread your thoughts everywhere you can including facebook, and other social media. If you manage to get enough attention, perhaps you will be selected to participate in the production process of the next album and we will finally get the huge powerful sound we have been yearning for. My confidence in you is unwavering.
This. I believe it is time for Stratovarius to officially take the Flavio pill. At the very least, maybe a bonus track of one song off their next album. "Flavio Ontivero special macho muchacho mix". It would kick our asses for all time, guaranteed. :winknudge:

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Re: Your favorite drum/guitar/etc production

Post by NeverendingAbyss » Thu Jan 28, 2021 5:32 am

Vat da fak is going on?:)
What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little bitch?!

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Re: Your favorite drum/guitar/etc production

Post by robocop » Thu Jan 28, 2021 10:33 am

AAAAAAAAAA wrote:
Thu Jan 28, 2021 1:14 am
robocop wrote:
Wed Jan 27, 2021 10:07 pm

So you don't like heavier music? Shame...like life we need to listen to dynamic music. But that's just me and my damaged brain talking. :lol:

The older albums production could use more power imho. Like strato production of the 90s. And the guitar tone, well not bad..it just is different. Don't know the tone details. Signature Romeo sound. Ever hear his newest solo album? Sounds like he's soundtrack composer pretty much added in. Guitar tone in later recent albums is different.
I do occasionally listen to heavier music. In the case of the last symphony x album, it's not just that it's heavier but that it sounds like generic modern metal. there are some good songs but also some filler songs in my opinion.

I really dig the orchestral stuff they did with twilight in Olympus, V, etc, maybe I'm just being nostalgic because I was a teenager when I discovered those albums.
Ohhh. I also was probably ..uh , 19 when hearing Olympus. I think that they chose to incorporate a modern sound tastefully. So it is not just chug chug. I wouldn't even know what to compare modern metal to. I do get that some of the songs do not hold up compared to classics like smoke and mirrors.

I look at it like this. Maybe they figured the old style was played out. It also isn't like they tossed it all away. You can tell its Symphony X. Anyway, if you ever heard their really old songs, demos and all...now that production is sadly not too good. You can still hear Romeo shred it up.

I realize that old fans want the power metal sound back. But do you think they gained a bigger following changing it all? Anyway... I also thought the snares from the old albums were not up to par. They do have similar sounds across multiple albums. It just well....needs more balls I would say? Little too snappy maybe. I dunno. :lol: Fuck it. I'm a moron.

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Re: Your favorite drum/guitar/etc production

Post by AAAAAAAAAA » Thu Jan 28, 2021 7:29 pm

I look at it like this. Maybe they figured the old style was played out. It also isn't like they tossed it all away. You can tell its Symphony X. Anyway, if you ever heard their really old songs, demos and all...now that production is sadly not too good.
You're right: they released a lot of albums that sounded almost exactly the same (Damnation Game through V) and at some point decided to shake things up a bit. I can respect that.

Actually the first Symphony X album I heard was the debut (self-titled) album with a singer called Rod Tyler who is out of tune the whole album. And like you said, the general production is very poor. But I listened to it again a few months ago and the songs still hold up. All in all not a great album but from a perspective of songwriting and melodies its pretty decent. Yeah, its amateurish, but after playing the album a few tunes get stuck in my head.

The album most people rave about is The Divine Wings of Tragedy, and I actually agree with you that it needs more "oomph" and polish. The songs are mostly good, though there are a few fillers here too.
I realize that old fans want the power metal sound back. But do you think they gained a bigger following changing it all
Probably not, to be honest. Honestly I have not seen almost any examples of bands that changed their style to a mainstream sound well after their inception and actually gained fans from it. Maybe Metallica is the only example I can think of. Like you said, they just grew out of the whole orchestral thing and I can respect that.
Fuck it. I'm a moron.
Come on, you're definitely not a moron. Be easy on yourself my guy. You make a lot of good points.

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Re: Your favorite drum/guitar/etc production

Post by robocop » Sun Jan 31, 2021 12:03 am

AAAAAAAAAA wrote:
Thu Jan 28, 2021 7:29 pm
I look at it like this. Maybe they figured the old style was played out. It also isn't like they tossed it all away. You can tell its Symphony X. Anyway, if you ever heard their really old songs, demos and all...now that production is sadly not too good.
You're right: they released a lot of albums that sounded almost exactly the same (Damnation Game through V) and at some point decided to shake things up a bit. I can respect that.

Actually the first Symphony X album I heard was the debut (self-titled) album with a singer called Rod Tyler who is out of tune the whole album. And like you said, the general production is very poor. But I listened to it again a few months ago and the songs still hold up. All in all not a great album but from a perspective of songwriting and melodies its pretty decent. Yeah, its amateurish, but after playing the album a few tunes get stuck in my head.

The album most people rave about is The Divine Wings of Tragedy, and I actually agree with you that it needs more "oomph" and polish. The songs are mostly good, though there are a few fillers here too.
I realize that old fans want the power metal sound back. But do you think they gained a bigger following changing it all
Probably not, to be honest. Honestly I have not seen almost any examples of bands that changed their style to a mainstream sound well after their inception and actually gained fans from it. Maybe Metallica is the only example I can think of. Like you said, they just grew out of the whole orchestral thing and I can respect that.
Fuck it. I'm a moron.
Come on, you're definitely not a moron. Be easy on yourself my guy. You make a lot of good points.
The Divine Wings of Tragedy was played so much in my old days. :shock: I even played it for my grandparents. :lol:
On to Symphony X's recent album, I don't think there are a lot of memorable songs. Only thing I remember about that older Symphony X album with a different singer is that the volume is pretty low. I mean, of course they didn't have a huge budget I'm guessing to make it sound incredible. And home studios were probably not in reach for a while yet. You didn't say that you heard the latest Romeo solo album, right? I also have the keyboard player's solo album, well one of them on my phone. The Allen solo album with Jens is more rock.


Vocalist sounds similar to Allen, to me at least. Got any ideas for a Flavio song? :lol: Maybe post a song that you'd like to have it sound like so I can compare mixes while doing it. I can't say that it'll be good. But sometimes it works for me.

PS. I am not a moron! I am a genius who graduate from Flavio Ontivero Online University .

Rate my setup.

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